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Re: DCP Tries on "Blackface" at 'Sic et Non'

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:53 pm
by Gadianton
I think there's room for multiple perspectives here. On the one hand, perhaps accusations are strained at times, although I'm not sure I specifically saw a charge of "racism" but rather racial "insensitivity". Of course I don't read every line of every post anyway, so maybe I missed something. On the other hand, the burden of sensitivity is generally assumed to increase with age, experience, education, and position. When a person who should know better slips, the slips tend to be magnified under that expectation. When slips are frequent; well, you get the picture -- multiple perspectives will arise as to explain the phenomena.

If a person has 12 degrees and constantly name drops the important people he regularly interacts with in life, that person should stop and think about what it will look like if he writes that post complaining about the grammar of a fast-food worker of a lower social economic class.

Of course, one particular interpretation of the data, the one I'm partial to, is that those things generally are often considered, and trolling for an (over)reaction is the goal. But again, most people weigh what's said against the status of the person saying it, and a higher bar is expected for a guy who is routinely advertised as a spokesman for the faith, and say, ldsfaqs.

Re: DCP Tries on "Blackface" at 'Sic et Non'

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:57 pm
by Shulem
Doctor Scratch wrote:It sounds like Dr. Peterson values invective and insult over keeping his word. I can't say that I'm surprised.


I wonder if Dan will become a son of perdition?

What do you say, Dan, are you willing to take orders from Cain?

Dan & Cain -- peas in a pod.

:twisted:

Re: DCP Tries on "Blackface" at 'Sic et Non'

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:52 pm
by Doctor Scratch
It's interesting: suppose that I offered to change the title of this thread, or delete the OP, or something of that nature, in exchange for a gesture of good faith on the part of the Mopologists. Given what Dr. Moore has said, it seems like that would be an exercise in futility, because the Mopologists would just renege and flip me off for being stupid enough to believe that they would ever act in good faith. And since this is what *they* do, they themselves will never, ever be the ones to extend the olive branch: they assume that since *they* will automatically screw over anyone "dumb" enough to try to sincerely offer up a gesture of peace, this is how they'll be treated in return. You wonder if the notion of forgiveness even exists in their worldview.

Re: DCP Tries on "Blackface" at 'Sic et Non'

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:41 pm
by Dr Moore
Perhaps so, professor. From our brief months of interactions, I have come to appreciate your insights as a gentleman and a scholar. I may err on the side of generosity too much, but if that’s what they say at my funeral then I’ll be thrilled to look anyone’s God in the eyes with confidence. The right thing to do usually stands out on its own, and isn’t reciprocal. I for one would embrace any adjustment you may feel to make in adopting a subject header change, whether more factually grounded or less inflammatory.

Respectfully,
Your junior colleague,
Dr Moore

Re: DCP Tries on "Blackface" at 'Sic et Non'

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:12 pm
by Kishkumen
I love the movie, “O Brother, Where Art Thou?”. Being a dopey college student who loved Coen Brothers films, I wanted to watch it with a new friend. He was an African American fellow whose wife worked at my university. As an obtuse Mormon white guy, I had no clue that anything in this movie could be offensive until I watched it with my new friend. He did not need to say anything for me to understand quite quickly what an idiot I was. Because I was ignorant, I did not recognize how the movie might make him feel before I turned it on. What an education at the cost of a new friendship.

I have grown up in a racist environment. It is a tricky thing and difficult to understand truly. If you are too close to something, it can be hard to see it clearly. Racism is treated as an insult, but it is a pervasive ideology. It skews everything. It steals from many and gives to a few. The way it alienates people from each other is a tragedy of global proportions.

The effort and dedication required to change hearts and minds to an anti-racist perspective are no small thing. Maybe this thread doesn’t help us come to terms with our common struggle against racism. If we were to conclude, upon sincere and careful reflection, that this does not help, what then should we do?

Re: DCP Tries on "Blackface" at 'Sic et Non'

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:39 pm
by Doctor Scratch
Gadianton wrote:I think there's room for multiple perspectives here. On the one hand, perhaps accusations are strained at times, although I'm not sure I specifically saw a charge of "racism" but rather racial "insensitivity". Of course I don't read every line of every post anyway, so maybe I missed something. On the other hand, the burden of sensitivity is generally assumed to increase with age, experience, education, and position. When a person who should know better slips, the slips tend to be magnified under that expectation. When slips are frequent; well, you get the picture -- multiple perspectives will arise as to explain the phenomena.

If a person has 12 degrees and constantly name drops the important people he regularly interacts with in life, that person should stop and think about what it will look like if he writes that post complaining about the grammar of a fast-food worker of a lower social economic class.

DCP wrote: I won't be intimidated by overzealous and self-righteous political correctness, let alone by disingenuous posing. I won't plead for forgiveness when I've committed no offense.

Re: DCP Tries on "Blackface" at 'Sic et Non'

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:56 pm
by Doctor Scratch
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:Sic et Non is disgusting. Daniel C. Peterson has a long and well-documented record of racism. Here are just a few examples:

--DCP has published lynching photos with "amusing" commentary. DCP was forced to retract the photos and issue a public apology.

--DCP has publicly stated that slavery was a blessing because the descendants of slaves now get to live in the United States.

--DCP has publicly criticized Martin Luther King on several occasions.

--DCP has publicly mocked Jewish wedding ceremonies.


As to the last item on this list: didn't that take place on this same trip? (Where he also allegedly "water-bombed" a cat?)

Re: Another Racially Insensitive Martin Luther King Day Week

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:17 pm
by Everybody Wang Chung
Not content with only making fun of the Palestinians and their culture, young DCP fondly recalls the time he called a group of Israeli soldiers “fascists.”

Young DCP certainly was the stereotypical ugly American tourist. Folks, you can’t make this stuff up.

“I distinctly recall visiting the Palestinian city of Hebron (חֶבְרוֹן; Arabic الْخَلِيل‎ al-Khalīl) in the southern portion of the occupied West Bank and being so revolted by the omnipresent signs of a deeply resented military occupation that, at one point, walking past a sandbagged Israeli machine gun emplacement, I rather loudly muttered something about “fascists.” Fortunately, the Israeli soldiers didn’t seem to hear me, or else, if they did, they ignored me.“

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... salem.html

Re: Another Racially Insensitive Martin Luther King Day Week

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:29 pm
by Dr Moore
I dunno, strolling past soldier representatives in a militarily-occupied regime and noting them as fascists seems pretty reasonable to me. In my unlearned youth, having not read much beyond Jack London and Isaac Asimov, witnessing such a thing first hand, an unwanted authoritarian military presence, I wouldn’t have been smart enough to say fascists, under my breath or otherwise. But I might have mumbled something like assholes, who knows. Maybe I’m too ignorant of the subtleties to appreciate what y’all see here.

Re: Another Racially Insensitive Martin Luther King Day Weekend at "Sic et Non"

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:20 am
by Doctor Scratch
Here is a pop quiz question for all you students of Mopologetics out there:

--How has Martin Luther King, Jr. Day been celebrated at "Sic et Non" each year?

Re: Another Racially Insensitive Martin Luther King Day Week

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:27 am
by Dr. Shades
I'm afraid that I'm going to fail this pop quiz, Doctor Scratch. :-(

Re: Another Racially Insensitive Martin Luther King Day Week

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:27 am
by I have a question
Clearly a duplicate

Re: Another Racially Insensitive Martin Luther King Day Week

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:12 am
by Kishkumen
Dr Moore wrote:I dunno, strolling past soldier representatives in a militarily-occupied regime and noting them as fascists seems pretty reasonable to me. In my unlearned youth, having not read much beyond Jack London and Isaac Asimov, witnessing such a thing first hand, an unwanted authoritarian military presence, I wouldn’t have been smart enough to say fascists, under my breath or otherwise. But I might have mumbled something like assholes, who knows. Maybe I’m too ignorant of the subtleties to appreciate what y’all see here.


It’s interesting. To judge from movies you would think that the Praetorian Guard marched around the city of Rome laden in armor. The truth is that their city garb approximated that of normal citizens. This was no doubt partly because a free Republic had been one in which the military zone was outside the formal city boundary. The regime of Augustus was less free than the Republic had been, but Augustus understood the sensitivities of the people much better than Caesar had.

The separation between military and civilian has also been important to us. I recall how shocked I was to see armed men and women in airports after 9/11. I instinctively felt intimidated and, well, somehow less free, although I understood the circumstances were unusual.

Israel is an apartheid state that lives by the gun. I’ve been at airports where Israeli airline desks were guarded by armed soldiers. The twisted nature of the situation is so fraught that a person can hardly bring it up in polite company without stepping on a metaphorical land mine.

We got here partly through one of the most ancient and virulent forms of racism the world has ever known, a form of entrenched xenophobia that long predates the modern concept of race: anti-semitism. We were recently treated to actual anti-semitism on this board. A true anti-semite attacked this board, trying to sabotage it or take it over—I don’t know.

One thing I do know is that, having gone through that attack, I have a difficult time watching us casually accuse a person of anti-semitism (essentially) on the grounds presented in this thread.

We all have various levels of awareness about the problems of racism and anti-semitism. To one degree or another each of us wrestles with these problems because they are integral to our culture. I am uncomfortable with them being used as a point of criticism of others unless there is very unambiguous evidence, as in the case of the barrage this board recently endured.

I can see taking people to task for lack of sensitivity, but goading them with the charge of racism or anti-semitism is uncool, IMO. How does that potentially reflect on us?

I am thankful that the title of this thread was changed.

Re: Another Racially Insensitive Martin Luther King Day Week

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:31 am
by kairos
Doctor Scratch wrote:Here is a pop quiz question for all you students of Mopologetics out there:

--How has Martin Luther King, Jr. Day been celebrated at "Sic et Non" each year?

In the I-15 corridor the stones cry out "who is martin luther kring" while at Yes et No Dan's blog intoned "i quoted harriet tubman,once".

hoping for a better 2020!!

k

Re: Another Racially Insensitive Martin Luther King Day Week

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:54 am
by Dr Moore
Kishkumen wrote:I am thankful that the title of this thread was changed.

Indeed, a laudable modification, Doctor Scratch. I doubt you will be thanked for editorializing, but I would like to think the gesture leads to good karma.

Re: Another Racially Insensitive Martin Luther King Day Week

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:56 am
by huckelberry
Kishkumen wrote:
Dr Moore wrote:I dunno, strolling past soldier representatives in a militarily-occupied regime and noting them as fascists seems pretty reasonable to me. ........

.......

We got here partly through one of the most ancient and virulent forms of racism the world has ever known, a form of entrenched xenophobia that long predates the modern concept of race: anti-semitism. We were recently treated to actual anti-semitism on this board. A true anti-semite attacked this board, trying to sabotage it or take it over—I don’t know.

One thing I do know is that, having gone through that attack, I have a difficult time watching us casually accuse a person of anti-semitism (essentially) on the grounds presented in this thread.

We all have various levels of awareness about the problems of racism and anti-semitism. To one degree or another each of us wrestles with these problems because they are integral to our culture. I am uncomfortable with them being used as a point of criticism of others unless there is very unambiguous evidence, as in the case of the barrage this board recently endured.

I can see taking people to task for lack of sensitivity, but goading them with the charge of racism or anti-semitism is uncool, IMO. How does that potentially reflect on us?

I am thankful that the title of this thread was changed.

Amen

Re: Another Racially Insensitive Martin Luther King Day Week

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:28 am
by moksha
Doctor Scratch wrote:--How has Martin Luther King, Jr. Day been celebrated at "Sic et Non" each year?

With a snifter of orange soda, listening to Tannhäuser, eating a chocolate donut, while reading classic articles from the FARMS Journal?

Re: Another Racially Insensitive Martin Luther King Day Week

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:21 pm
by Philo Sofee
moksha wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:--How has Martin Luther King, Jr. Day been celebrated at "Sic et Non" each year?

With a snifter of orange soda, listening to Tannhäuser, eating a chocolate donut, while reading classic articles from the FARMS Journal?


How did yo make your umlaut using the keyboard Moksha? I need to write that down. I knew at one time but cannot figure it out. You know, I really am dumber than I imagined I would be at my age.... :biggrin:

Re: Another Racially Insensitive Martin Luther King Day Week

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:42 pm
by Gadianton
I’ll take today’s nice Martin Luther King post as the “plea for forgiveness”.

Apology accepted.

Re: Another Racially Insensitive Martin Luther King Day Week

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:48 pm
by Kishkumen
Gadianton wrote:I’ll take today’s nice Martin Luther King post as the “plea for forgiveness”.

Apology accepted.

That is a good post. I think it is perhaps the best Martin Luther King Day post he has ever written.

Re: Another Racially Insensitive Martin Luther King Day Weekend at "Sic et Non"

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:17 pm
by Doctor CamNC4Me
Lol, and right on cue Midgley can't resist disparaging Dr. King:

Louis "I WROTE A TOP SECRET OPERATIONS PLAN AS A PRIVATE" Midgley • 2 hours ago

There is one slight blemish on his otherwise impressive career. Some may know, and all should know, that I wrote my Ph.D. dissertation on Paul Tillich's political theology. Dr. King also wrote his dissertation on Paul Tillich. The difference was, unfortunately, he lifted much of his dissertation from others. He did not have to do that, since he was fully capable doing his own work.

Since it has been a very long time since I have given this any attention, I did a search and came up with "Martin Luther King Jr authorship issues." It seems that he had a persistent pattern of lifting language from others without proper attribution that began prior to his Ph.D. dissertation. In addition, after his death, it was discovered that he did this in his speeches. I now wish I did not know this.

Boy, the irony of that second highlighted statement cannot be overstated.

And, of course, Mr. Peterson has to make today about himself:

Daniel Plagiarizin' Peterson Mod > Louis Midgley • 2 hours ago • edited

I mentioned this issue once, several years ago. Doing so got me skewered as a racist, etc.

That saddened me. But not as much as learning about the issue had saddened me in the first place. I took and take absolutely no pleasure in it.

I regard Dr. King as, in many ways, a hero. But, alas, not in all ways. He was flawed. Seriously so, in at least two regards.

Oh? Two you say. On the day where you write an ode to the man, but can't resist ____ all over him anyway in your own comments section?

edit: You'll note he's ok with Louis "Tall Tales" Midgley maligning Dr. King. Perhaps he and the Midge should follow his own advice:

You've chosen a curious day to malign Dr. King. Please stop it.

- Doc