"BYU displays baffling incompetence" Gehrke

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
I have a question
God
Posts: 9415
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:01 am

"BYU displays baffling incompetence" Gehrke

Post by I have a question »

Brigham Young University has sure managed to “frick” over its gay students in a baffling display of incompetence.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/03/05/ ... -byu-hurt/

Last month, the school, owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, stripped out of its Honor Code a prohibition on “all forms of physical intimacy that give expression to homosexual feelings.”
What came next should have surprised no one. Scores of relieved and jubilant LGBTQ students celebrated, posting photos on social media believing it was now OK to hold hands or hug or kiss another person of the same sex, just like their heterosexual classmates were allowed to do. And Honor Code officials told them it was OK. They asked.


On Wednesday, the school did a complete reversal.
A letter from Paul V. Johnson, the commissioner of the Church Education System that oversees BYU, said there had been “some misinterpretation” of the Honor Code revision and that romantic same-sex behavior was not compatible with the Honor Code because it “cannot lead to eternal marriage” — which remains one of BYU’s prime directives.
Now, even if you share BYU’s position on same-sex relationships and even if you supported their past discipline of those students, I think we can all agree that the reversal, then re-reversal of the Honor Code was an unmitigated disaster.

Of course, that reversal means that BYU may have removed a section of the Honor Code in written form, but it's alive and well in the shadows and will still be enforced as if it was still included. They are now actively hiding their policies from students and the public.

The initial announcement was incompetently handled and abysmally communicated, then left without clarification for weeks, despite the obvious confusion it created.

Now it’s a public relations nightmare for the university, which is seen as having pulled a bait-and-switch on a move toward openness that many of its students — those who are LGBTQ and the many, many more who support their friends — had been pleading for for years.
Students turned out to protest the move by the hundreds, gathering in the Wilkinson Center, chanting “Hey hey, ho ho, the Honor Code has got to go.”
The students need to gather together en masse and go on strike. This must be a watershed moment.

This Honor Code 180 is more than in image problem. It was callous and cruel, giving students the hope that they might not have to hide their romantic feelings — really their true selves — only to drive them back into the shadows.

And going back into the closet is not even possible for all of those students who publicly celebrated the original change, posting pictures reveling in the elation of being able to openly love who they love for the first time.
"There's pictures of me on the news, kissing a girl in front of the Brigham Young statue. People who didn't know before know now because I thought it didn't matter," student Lilly Bitter told my colleague Courtney Tanner. "It's so much more scrutiny, and I feel like I'm not safe here anymore.”


“We realize that emotions over the last two weeks cover the spectrum and that some have and will continue to feel isolation and pain,” said Kevin Utt, the director of BYU’s Honor Code Office in a Q&A posted on the school’s website, encouraging the campus community to treat each other with “sensitivity, love and respect.”
That would be the same “sensitivity, love and respect” that Utt and the university failed to show the students, the cause of so much “isolation and pain.”
I’m not going to run down the damage inflicted on these students. They know the rates at which these students will turn their back on their church. They know the rates of depression. They know the rates of suicide.


Yet still they did this.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')

User avatar
Dr Moore
Endowed Chair of Historical Innovation
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:19 pm

Re: "BYU displays baffling incompetence" Gehrke

Post by Dr Moore »

It’s abuse, plain and simple. Abuse in the name of Jesus.

User avatar
Dr Exiled
God
Posts: 3167
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm

Re: "BYU displays baffling incompetence" Gehrke

Post by Dr Exiled »

LGTBQ students unfortunately will need to go to a different university, one not still caught in the 1950's, fighting a non-existent war for religious "freedom." It shouldn't be hard for them to get accepted to an equally strong academic institution. If they can get in to BYU, they can probably get in elsewhere. Cost may be a problem, though, as the church doesn't subsidize 21st century thinking.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

candygal
God
Posts: 1428
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 8:38 pm

Re: "BYU displays baffling incompetence" Gehrke

Post by candygal »

Dr Exiled wrote:LGTBQ students unfortunately will need to go to a different university, one not still caught in the 1950's, fighting a non-existent war for religious "freedom." It shouldn't be hard for them to get accepted to an equally strong academic institution. If they can get in to BYU, they can probably get in elsewhere. Cost may be a problem, though, as the church doesn't subsidize 21st century thinking.
No....LGTBQ students should stay and fight this one. How many changes in said revelations, policies and stuff in that poor worn out handbook has come out lately in the past few years that didn't need clarifications?? In between all of this...some people have been hurt and already separated from families and came out...bull...bull..they don't get to back track their asses all the time.

User avatar
SuperDell
Holy Ghost
Posts: 881
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:27 pm

Re: "BYU displays baffling incompetence" Gehrke

Post by SuperDell »

It is a "smart way" for the University to identify problems students - as they now have photos of all the public displays and celebrations.

Just like the New York City police sending out notices to lawbreakers they could not catch of "Free tickets to Yankees Games" - and then arresting a whole gym full of them when they showed up to claim the tickets - BYU has used the lie to out those who publicly display their feelings.

Nothing more than another trick to control those who attend the school.
“Those who never retract their opinions love themselves more than they love truth.”
― Joseph Joubert

User avatar
DarkHelmet
God
Posts: 5398
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:38 pm

Re: "BYU displays baffling incompetence" Gehrke

Post by DarkHelmet »

omantic same-sex behavior was not compatible with the Honor Code because it “cannot lead to eternal marriage”


There are a lot of behaviors that cannot lead to eternal marriage. Being a celibate gay Mormon is behavior that cannot lead to eternal marriage. is that no longer allowed at BYU?
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775

User avatar
fetchface
God
Posts: 1520
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:38 am

Re: "BYU displays baffling incompetence" Gehrke

Post by fetchface »

DarkHelmet wrote:There are a lot of behaviors that cannot lead to eternal marriage. Being a celibate gay Mormon is behavior that cannot lead to eternal marriage. is that no longer allowed at BYU?

Obviously he didn't mean that, but a fair reading for consistency would demand that yes, there is something implied to be wrong with that as well. And that illustrates the hell that gay LDS have been living. Nothing they can do will make it so that they can participate in the better sides of the LDS life.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My Blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/

User avatar
moksha
God
Posts: 21638
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: "BYU displays baffling incompetence" Gehrke

Post by moksha »

Hamlet would tell these BYU students, "Get thee to America, go!"
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace

User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 20397
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am

Re: "BYU displays baffling incompetence" Gehrke

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

... an equally strong academic institution.


So, like, Phoenix University?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

User avatar
Dr. Shades
Founder & Visionary
Posts: 14064
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:07 pm

Re: "BYU displays baffling incompetence" Gehrke

Post by Dr. Shades »

Last month, the school, owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, stripped out of its Honor Code a prohibition on “all forms of physical intimacy that give expression to homosexual feelings.”

So far, so good. . .

On Wednesday, the school did a complete reversal.

Really?

A letter from Paul V. Johnson, the commissioner of the Church Education System that oversees BYU, said there had been “some misinterpretation” of the Honor Code revision and that romantic same-sex behavior was not compatible with the Honor Code because it “cannot lead to eternal marriage” — which remains one of BYU’s prime directives.

This doesn't sound like a reversal to me. It sounds like him reminding everyone that just because people will no longer be punished for it doesn't mean it's O.K.

So the original policy change is still in place. They still won't be punished, but such displays won't necessarily be encouraged, either.

User avatar
Dr Exiled
God
Posts: 3167
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm

Re: "BYU displays baffling incompetence" Gehrke

Post by Dr Exiled »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
... an equally strong academic institution.


So, like, Phoenix University?

- Doc


Haha. BYU for all its warts is a pretty strong academic institution and doesn't cost as much for similar institutions. Yet, one has to deal with the Gestapo type tactics they use and the religious silliness, if one attends. I didn't go there and am a proud Ute. But my siblings and cousins went there and nieces and nephews, too. They did well post grad. Too bad the religion ____ it up.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

I have a question
God
Posts: 9415
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:01 am

Re: "BYU displays baffling incompetence" Gehrke

Post by I have a question »

Roni Jo Draper, a professor at BYU who teaches education and women’s studies, tells TIME that she’s seen “a lot of confusion and sadness and anger” among her queer students. She adds that the decision to leave the “homosexual behavior” clause out of the Honor Code, while still banning same-sex displays of affection, is likely to be confusing for future students.

Lopez says when she received Johnson’s letter on Wednesday, she “just felt so stupid and taken advantage of.”

“So many people here don’t even date for marriage… and do things that are not leading to marriage, and that’s not punished by the Honor Code Office,” she continues. “This is explicitly homophobic.”

https://time.com/5797260/brigham-young- ... y-revised/

“It just seems like we’re constantly being tossed back and forth… people can’t make up their mind about how to treat us in this community,” he says. “There’s no clear sense about whether or not we belong here.”


Earlier in the week Mr Ballard told BYU students...
Marginalizing and persecuting people based on age, gender, nationality, religious preference or anything else can be hurtful and misunderstood,” he said. As Ballard, 91, read from a teleprompter, he appears to have changed the last word in that part of his prepared address from what it said on the screen: “evil.”
And yet the Church just further marginalised gay students.

The apostle has previously addressed LGBTQ concerns within the conservative faith, including at a similar devotional at BYU in 2017. Then, he said, all members have a place in the church, regardless of sexual orientation. And the faith “must do better than we have in the past until all feel they have a spiritual home.”

https://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2 ... tells-byu/
How's that going Ballard?
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')

I have a question
God
Posts: 9415
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:01 am

Re: "BYU displays baffling incompetence" Gehrke

Post by I have a question »

The deletion of the homosexual clause could not have been oversight. Surely someone expected this to make national news and considered the impact that the changes would have. Sadly, it took two weeks for the CES commissioner to respond with the shortest, vaguest clarification. What even constitutes “romantic behavior?”
The Honor Code Office at BYU deserves better instruction to implement policy. The students and alumni deserve better to know what is happening. LGBTQIA+ students need direction on what is appropriate and not on this campus. Give explicit definitions, not bland and subjective wording.
Allowing homophobia to fester and grow on campus is despicable and I hope that there will be immediate changes to how the CES and BYU will choose to report on such life-changing policies in the future. Two weeks for clarification was too long.

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commenta ... -students/

What is it Prophets do again?

What I find upsetting about these past two weeks is that blame will be directed to Utt for creating confusion. Yes, he did tell students that homosexual behavior was not punishable on campus but, as Utt eluded to, someone above him in leadership told him that. His role as director is to implement the policies that are created without his input.
While I do not know everything about what kind of organization and leadership there is within the CES system, something is not working. Official statements being released in poorly worded tweets and Instagram stories is not what a school that values being representative of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and an institution of higher education should do.
Where is the public relations team? Who is that oblivious to the real world and allowing for these weak statements to be published?

As Elder Ballard shared the day before the clarification announcement, at a Tuesday devotional, “Marginalizing and persecuting people based on age, gender, nationality, religious preferences or anything else can be hurtful or misunderstood.”
Unfortunately, such hurt and misunderstanding was exacerbated by the poor planning and horrific wording of the announcements. Students, staff, and alumni are struggling and shocked. BYU, where is your integrity?


Nathaniel Call is a sophomore at Brigham Young University psychology and Japanese. He plans to pursue a career in psychiatry.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')

User avatar
Dr Moore
Endowed Chair of Historical Innovation
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:19 pm

Re: "BYU displays baffling incompetence" Gehrke

Post by Dr Moore »

Dr. Shades wrote:So the original policy change is still in place. They still won't be punished, but such displays won't necessarily be encouraged, either.



You may be right. Or not.

But you know how Mormons work. This is a HUGE social issue -- subtleties are everything to those on the margin looking for hope.

So yes, the flip-flopping, however subtle or nuanced, is cruel and abusive. Clarity is warranted and it is not being given. Hence the protests. Which I support and I am personally aware of at least 2 BYU administrators who STRONGLY support the student protests.

I do wish that some, or even just 1, BYU administrator would come out and voice dissent at what has occurred in the past 3 weeks.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 9 guests