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 Post subject: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:36 pm 
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The below quote attributed to John on ExMormon Reddit some hours ago has a depth of thought, I,as a nevermo, never thought about it in the way he puts! On the other hand being raised in the "one true church" Roman Catholic way of life, the quote applies too; but not as rigidly as it applies to Mo'ism. I see the narrative being played out in the current life of some of my grandchildren!

So just askin- what strikes you about the quote and it's applicability to your experience?

"There is something fundamentally immoral to presenting a narrative that people build their entire lives upon. They decide what to do with their education, how much money to give, who to marry, when to marry, how many kids to have, what professions to pursue… There’s this massive amount of decisions that you make, you know in a finite life, and to base that life on a narrative, when not only the narrative isn’t what it claims to be, when leaders know the narrative isn’t what it claims to be, and intentionally - for as long as they could - withheld the information that would allow people to make an informed decision about how they spend their finite time and resources –that’s profoundly immoral." John Dehlin.


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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:21 pm 
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In this, John Dehlin is true! :smile: Your thoughts and how you think are ingrained and even patriarchal blessings will be reflective in your choices...you serve, you pay, you are promised! And to be lied to changes your whole frame not only who you are...but who you may have become.


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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:23 pm 
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I think the leaders largely believe the narrative they are selling for the most part. Any errors kind of crept in unawares in their view. I think they think Joseph did see God, that he was gifted some power to translate and bring forth the Book of Mormon, that he was visited by New Testament characters and given the priesthood, was inspired to build temples, write Abraham's story, led people from here to there and around about, was commanded to marry a bunch of ladies for reasons they don't understand, and was killed for following God. Certainly digging into various details hurts the dominant narrative, as Bushman suggested, but on the whole I think they firmly think that it all happened that way. I don't think its profoundly immoral that they are pushing people to do what they think is best.


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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:25 pm 
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Stem wrote:
I think the leaders largely believe the narrative they are selling for the most part. Any errors kind of crept in unawares in their view. I think they think Joseph did see God, that he was gifted some power to translate and bring forth the Book of Mormon, that he was visited by New Testament characters and given the priesthood, was inspired to build temples, write Abraham's story, led people from here to there and around about, was commanded to marry a bunch of ladies for reasons they don't understand, and was killed for following God. Certainly digging into various details hurts the dominant narrative, as Bushman suggested, but on the whole I think they firmly think that it all happened that way. I don't think its profoundly immoral that they are pushing people to do what they think is best.


Precisely. I get where John was coming from, but by now he really should know that the leaders of the LDS Church did not and do not have any special insight into Mormon history. They generally work from the assumptions and spiritual experiences of most Mormons. The difference is in the scope of responsibility. I am kind of tired of this ex-Mormon trope. I see insufficient reason to buy into it.

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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:56 pm 
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I respectfully disagree, reverend. When the journey experienced by freshly awakened members is so consistently painful, and so consistently linked to point after point of degrees of deception (white lies, seeing every glass half full, or outright hiding and deceit) it does legitimately justify feelings of anger and betrayal. At a minimum, those feelings are a healthy stage of grief and to deny anyone expression on that is to prevent healing and growth.


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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:18 pm 
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Dr Moore wrote:
I respectfully disagree, reverend. When the journey experienced by freshly awakened members is so consistently painful, and so consistently linked to point after point of degrees of deception (white lies, seeing every glass half full, or outright hiding and deceit) it does legitimately justify feelings of anger and betrayal. At a minimum, those feelings are a healthy stage of grief and to deny anyone expression on that is to prevent healing and growth.


I don’t question the validity of these feelings in members who are discovering these things for the first time, but John knows better what the reality of the situation is. Should he simply encourage people in their bad feelings or temper their expectations? That is his choice, but I would not be of a mind simply to reflect back to these struggling members, or even amplify, their anger.

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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:20 pm 
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Dr Moore wrote:
I respectfully disagree, reverend. When the journey experienced by freshly awakened members is so consistently painful, and so consistently linked to point after point of degrees of deception (white lies, seeing every glass half full, or outright hiding and deceit) it does legitimately justify feelings of anger and betrayal. At a minimum, those feelings are a healthy stage of grief and to deny anyone expression on that is to prevent healing and growth.


I think there's room to acknowledge people were deceived and rightfully feel angry and betrayed, while also thinking the leaders believe what they're selling. Perhaps it means we accept that they are tolerating some errors while moving forward to their goal, thinking the errors are minimal or inconsequential anyway. Added to that is perhaps them thinking that which seems wrong to all of us is correct to them.

To me the story of the first vision is really just Joseph's teenage dreams. To them it happened precisely as the official version says--as if Joseph just memorized it. To them the contradictions from the other versions are inconsequential because he confused things when he wrote those or spoke those versions.


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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:20 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
I don’t question the validity of these feelings in members who are discovering these things for the first time, but John knows better what the reality of the situation is. Should he simply encourage people in their bad feelings or temper their expectations? That is his choice, but I would not be of a mind simply to reflect back to these struggling members, or even amplify, their anger.

oh yep. that's a better response.


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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:53 pm 
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Some members really believe. Some do not care that the story is not, strictly speaking, true. Some see it as true in other senses. Some come to see Joseph Smith as a con artist or cult leader. There is a range of possibilities here. It bothers me that some critics do not come to understand that most Mormons have not purposely deceived others for nefarious reasons. If you don’t know you are incorrect about something, you cannot lie to others about your understanding that you are correct. You just don’t know.

The process of selecting leaders in Mormonism heavily favors those who express conviction that Mormonism is true. The result is that most believe Mormonism is true. When they are true to their understanding, people think they must be lying. A few may be. It is unlikely that this percentage comes anywhere close to a third of the pack.

So, it is not reasonable to expect disconfirming evidence and arguments from Church leaders. I don’t think that calling this situation immoral is at all realistic or accurate. Let’s try to bring people to a place where they reach reasonable conclusions about their Mormon experience, not because we care that they remain Mormon, but because we want them to come out the other side as happy and healthy as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:39 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Let’s try to bring people to a place where they reach reasonable conclusions about their Mormon experience, not because we care that they remain Mormon, but because we want them to come out the other side as happy and healthy as possible.


Amen. But can we agree that a meaningful step toward getting past disillusionment to this place you describe is facilitated, for a large percentage of population, by the public service that folks like Dehlin absolutely serve, which is to fly a banner in the sky that invites people to embrace their anger, says it’s going to be OK, you’re not alone, your feelings are valid and others are here to embrace them with you. That function may require varying tactics of aggressive marketing because unfortunately the programming has been equally aggressive. Personally I don’t get any value from Dehlin anymore, but there was a time when I realized how necessary a role he serves for church members dealing with the worst kind of emotional trauma. This says nothing by the way about whether I think John is a good person or a moral leader. Had to add that.


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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:53 pm 
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Dr Moore wrote:
Amen. But can we agree that a meaningful step toward getting past disillusionment to this place you describe is facilitated, for a large percentage of population, by the public service that folks like Dehlin absolutely serve, which is to fly a banner in the sky that invites people to embrace their anger, says it’s going to be OK, you’re not alone, your feelings are valid and others are here to embrace them with you. That function may require varying tactics of aggressive marketing because unfortunately the programming has been equally aggressive. Personally I don’t get any value from Dehlin anymore, but there was a time when I realized how necessary a role he serves for church members dealing with the worst kind of emotional trauma. This says nothing by the way about whether I think John is a good person or a moral leader. Had to add that.


I do see a role for someone to tell people they can own their anger. It is important to be validated in the processing of feelings during a time of doubt or loss of faith.

Still, I fundamentally disagree with Dehlin’s statement about immoral behavior in Church leadership above. It is incorrect or misconceived in a variety of ways. So, by all means, embrace those suffering when they suffer, but do not manufacture bogeymen out of other Mormons who do not share that disillusionment and anger. Don’t accuse them of being immoral for believing and acting on those beliefs. John says some clumsy things that create division, when he is trying to do his best to stand with those who suffer.

I applaud his intentions, and I think he does a lot of great things. This statement is not one of them.

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“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:56 pm 
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I'm mixed on dehlin's statement. Realistically, people create social institutions and social institutions govern people's choices and realistically, the packaged life deal a person gets out of Mormonism isn't that bad compared to other packages out there. There are also other tight-knit communities where shunning happens in principle or practice to the same degree as Mormonism or worse.

What may be unique to Mormonism in my view is the sheer force of the "it's true!" mythology. I can't give the leaders credit for being smart enough to pull this off in terms of a plot. Somehow, and perhaps this would make for a great grad-student paper at the MI, the singularly defining meme of being a Mormon has become "it's true!". I can't tell you how many times I had seminary teachers nearly in tears as they struggled to communicate, "guys, it's true...it's true and if nothing else you just need to know that." No matter how big the fund is or mistakes by leaders or anything else, it's true, and we just know you have to stick with it. The flip side of the "it's true" meme supports Dehlin's position in a very real way. I can't count the number of times I have heard, "If it wasn't true, I wouldn't be here!" A particular Book of Mormon teacher at the Y who had a Harvard theology Ph.D. used to say that if there wasn't a God, he would be the baddest guy around, and that if the Church wasn't true, he'd be gone in a flash (or something). And then there are the statements by Joseph Smith, and perhaps it was Joseph Smith's evil genius that got this stone rolling down the hill, that if he were to find another organization with more truth than Mormonism, he'd leave for it in an instant. And so Dehlin and pretty much the entirety of Chapel Mormon culture agrees on the point that either the Book of Mormon is true, or it's the greatest lie the Devil ever produced. And so theoretically, when an apostate leaves because the lies stack up and there's just no way it's true, they are on sure footing theoretically, per Mormonism's own theology, it's just that they go against the fine print that says, "by the way, the Church can't be false."

Where it gets questionable is Dehlin also has an advanced degree in psychology, right? And so he can't possibly hold the Church to it's own standards in the long run, he needs to consider it in terms of the much better ideas of men that frame social institutions, and at a certain point, it's helpful to realize that while yes, the Church is obviously false, it's also not really that far off from any other uptight institution out there, I'd say it's within a standard deviation from the norm.

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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:06 pm 
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If you view this from the perspective of a corporation it is only amoral.

Putting aside whether a product is actually new and improved if it cleans your laundry adequately then it is performing as expected.

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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:39 am 
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I can't speak about disenchantment with Mormonism in particular. I do have mixed feelings now about some of the religiously motivated choices I made in my twenties. I don't think too many middle-aged people are perfectly happy with everything they did in their twenties, though. And I'm not completely sure that just spending less time in churches and Bible studies would automatically have made me a rock star. If I were to meet my younger self now I wouldn't scream at him to get out of anything; I'd just suggest over beer that he could afford to chill out a bit more. So up to a point I think I can empathize with ex-Mormons but only up to a point.

Finding out that you're a standard deviation below the norm kind of sucks if you've always thought you were far, far above the norm. It could be worse, but you're not used to having to think that way.

For what it's worth I also doubt that Mormon leaders are deliberately deceiving anyone. I think that Dehlin has an important point, however, about the situation of people building their lives to a significant degree upon lies. That's not harmless. It's quite a bad thing in itself. And the leaders may not have been consciously telling the lies, but there's such a thing as culpability by criminal negligence.

The leaders have done a lot of damage to a lot of people. Okay, say they did it unknowingly. Still they really ought to have appreciated that the kind of thing they were doing would be pretty rotten if what they believed should happen not to be true. And then, appreciating that, they ought to have investigated more, just to be sure. I mean, if I pull something from the fridge just for me to eat, I might overlook a slight smell because it's probably safe and it's only me. If I'm serving dinner to family and guests, though, I'm supposed to apply a higher standard of food safety.

In the case of Mormonism there are so many iffy-smelling things. It's hard to believe that anyone as smart as most Mormon leaders who had really exercised due diligence in checking out the iffy things would still have gone on proclaiming Mormon truth so firmly. So it's hard not to feel that Mormon leaders have failed to exercise due diligence and are responsible for encouraging a lot of people to base their lives upon lies. They may not have known what they were doing but they should have had doubts.


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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:56 am 
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To focus on one example among many, there are people in the leadership who, knowing the facts about the first vision, still choose to present the official narrative as irrefutable fact. They have it written into manuals, taught in the standard block, make movies about it, bear testimony of it, destroy or hide written evidence that called it into question and otherwise decide for others what information is valuable for them to have or act on
Does the possibility they choose to see it as black and white, and are sincere in believing the official narrative is the correct one make their actions of presenting one version while hiding others moral or even neutral? No. It's deeply immoral behavior. It's also arrogant and anti-democratic. I agree with Dehlin on this one.

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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:47 am 
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People generally know what it is in their interest to know and what is rewarding for them to know. That is as true of the most educated person in society as it is the most ignorant. One cannot assume that being smart makes one right, or that being smart and wrong makes one immoral.

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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:58 am 
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I think there's also room to suggest some particular action by a leader is immoral. I think Joseph Fielding Smith's action of trying to hide the 1832 version of the first vision as the Church Historian is an immoral act. I don't think that means the leaders of today are being immoral for thinking the official version is the best representation of history.

If we extend Dehlin's point out to others, the point feels meaningless to me. It seems to me we'd all be pointing fingers of scorn at each other crying immoral, all because we each tend to see things our own way.


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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:38 am 
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Stem wrote:
I think there's also room to suggest some particular action by a leader is immoral. I think Joseph Fielding Smith's action of trying to hide the 1832 version of the first vision as the Church Historian is an immoral act. I don't think that means the leaders of today are being immoral for thinking the official version is the best representation of history.

What's immoral is making the decision for others. That includes the current leadership, not just Joseph Fielding Smith.

Kishkumen wrote:
People generally know what it is in their interest to know and what is rewarding for them to know. That is as true of the most educated person in society as it is the most ignorant. One cannot assume that being smart makes one right, or that being smart and wrong makes one immoral.

A person's knowledge is limited by the information available to them. Playing information gatekeepers to keep people uninformed and thereby compliant is immoral.

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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:50 am 
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honorentheos wrote:
What's immoral is making the decision for others. That includes the current leadership, not just Joseph Fielding Smith.


Leadership means, by definition, making decisions for others. For the most part leaders of the LDS Church fill the role that they have been called upon to take up and they act in accordance with the traditional norms of LDS leaders.

If we, being more democratic, do not agree with the norms for LDS leadership, then we should not assent to them or cooperate with them. Really, the LDS Church is not the place for us. That said, I would not count it personally immoral for a leader to act in good faith according to the values of their community.

And, when it comes to history, the questions are not so easy and straightforward as John Dehlin's harsh judgments seem to suggest.

Quote:
A person's knowledge is limited by the information available to them. Playing information gatekeepers to keep people uninformed and thereby compliant is immoral.


This--a person's knowledge is limited by the information available to them--is also true of the leaders. Their knowledge is limited by the information available to them, and that includes the information that they choose to know or desire to know. Like most human beings, they will select and favor information that reinforces the rewards of their community, not those that bring them tension, unhappiness, and the loss of those rewards.

The information they choose to pass on will be the information that works within the system, because they hold out the others the promise of emulating their success and happiness. If they did not get where they are by reading the Tanners, they will not send others to read the Tanners to be happy Mormons.

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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:53 am 
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Fox News is kewl, then? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:58 am 
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From Gad:"Realistically, people create social institutions and social institutions govern people's choices and realistically, the packaged life deal a person gets out of Mormonism isn't that bad compared to other packages out there. There are also other tight-knit communities where shunning happens in principle or practice to the same degree as Mormonism or worse. "

Is it ever "right" for an organization,religion, government, cult, tribe, nation,state, city,town or even a family to "force" (big F or little f) a life package deal on a person? The RCC tried it on me and others teaching that the life package deal was what God wanted for me or do to me. For me, rebellion/denouncement/breakaway and freedom was much much easier it seems than one "caught " in the Mormon life package deal scenario. On a much smaller level but still important, my friends who went to West Point because of granddad/dad/uncle/brother, often found later that the military life package deal was not them. Often it took courage to opt out.
maybe john is saying that when a life package deal becomes /is coercive there is something not right(maybe not immoral) about if from a denial of a person's inalienable rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. finally is relativism ( life deal A is certainly a hellavu lot better than life deal B) applicable here?

thanx
k


Last edited by kairos on Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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