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 Post subject: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Institute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:14 am 
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The events that transpired in 2012 at the Maxwell Institute have been visited, revisited, and re-revisited over the years by Peterson, accompanied by a mostly rabid Midgley. He tells a story of betrayal and defines it as an “ouster,” but lately, several other voices have disagreed with his version. Most recently, in this fascinating exchange:
Quote:
Professor Mandalorian >> Louis Midgley • 6 hours ago

Louis,

That certainly was an interesting piece of revisionist history.

No ma’am, that’s not history. I was there.


−-
DanielPeterson Mod >> Professor Mandalorian • 2 hours ago • edited

Maybe you were there, PM. Maybe you weren't. I knew nobody in or out of the Maxwell Institute named "Mandalorian."

But I KNOW that I was there. Under my own name.

Professor Midgley's account is accurate.


−-
Professor Mandalorian >> DanielPeterson • 43 minutes ago

Dan,

Brother Midgley’s (and your account) have very little to do with reality.

I know more about that than I feel at liberty to tell. Scholarly decorum prevents me (and many other Maxwell scholars) from airing your dirty laundry.

Dan, I know this is a topic where passions and emotions still run high for you and my intention is not to dredge up painful memories.

Just be aware that I and several other Maxwell scholars respectfully disagree with the narrative you’ve been attempting to foist into the public.


Again, best of luck with the Interpreter. I think it has some potential to be a legitimate and credible voice.

And with that, I will say nothing further on this topic.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4754153477

[bolding added]


Last edited by Lemmie on Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Instatute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:31 am 
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The post from Midgley that elicited this response from "Professor Mandalorian" is provided for the sake of convenience:

Quote:
Someone has asked me to mention what has caused this sudden concern about revisionist history. Dan and I have been going along doing our business, only suddenly to have a Fake Doctor (FD) suddenly posted something called "Morgan Davis and the 'Plot" to Destroy FARMS." I will not link to this weird bit of rubbish. FD suddenly has and has posted confidential correspondence. Why? So that he can fashion his own revisionist history, in which he insist that the Brethren ordered Cecil Samuelson to indirectly fire Professor Peterson as editor of the FARMS Review. I have not counted the single spaced pages when printed but there are probably more that twenty five. Much of what follows the initial commentary, is wild, unfounded speculation by those who detest the faith of Latter-day Saints and are constantly seeking ways to discredit our efforts to defend the faith of the Saints.

And, in addition, as I can now demonstrate, one of those involved in the purge of Professor Peterson wrote a long and very detailed apology for having been involved in that sick endeavor. And FD has now made that letter public. There is no mention of doing what the Brethren wanted. Instead, Bradford talked Cecil Samuelson, who was his neighbor, into doing what those who plotted the purge wanted.

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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Instatute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:04 am 
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... doing our business ...
This makes me feel an unlikely affinity for the MI. When it's time for our doggies to do their business, we too prefer that they do it outside.


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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Instatute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:09 am 
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Like most here, I have a hard time believing that the buck stopped with Dr. Samuelson, a 70, formerly a president of the 70, and then President of BYU, the church's flagship university. The matter was sensitive, concerning Dehlin, a person perhaps bent on making a public fuss over the hit piece, at a time when Romney was about to obtain the nomination on behalf of himself and the Mormon machine. The top down controlling brethren were involved. Maybe there were some brethren who sided with the Midge and gang (the brethren disagree with one another at times - big shock).

However, according to the Midge, conveniently for the brethren's appearances, it stopped at Samuelson's level and according to the secret information Dr. Peterson claims to have in the above sic et non post, Salt Lake City wasn't involved. Even so, Salt Lake City always likes to have plausible deniability when dirty work has to be done so stories like the one I am intimately familiar with (E. Poleman being advised to leave the apostles out of "his" decision to change his talk) occur frequently.

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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Instatute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:21 am 
God
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Kishkumen wrote:
The post from Midgley that elicited this response from "Professor Mandalorian" is provided for the sake of convenience:

Quote:
Someone has asked me to mention what has caused this sudden concern about revisionist history. Dan and I have been going along doing our business, only suddenly to have a Fake Doctor (FD) suddenly posted something called "Morgan Davis and the 'Plot" to Destroy FARMS." I will not link to this weird bit of rubbish. FD suddenly has and has posted confidential correspondence. Why? So that he can fashion his own revisionist history, in which he insist that the Brethren ordered Cecil Samuelson to indirectly fire Professor Peterson as editor of the FARMS Review. I have not counted the single spaced pages when printed but there are probably more that twenty five. Much of what follows the initial commentary, is wild, unfounded speculation by those who detest the faith of Latter-day Saints and are constantly seeking ways to discredit our efforts to defend the faith of the Saints.

And, in addition, as I can now demonstrate, one of those involved in the purge of Professor Peterson wrote a long and very detailed apology for having been involved in that sick endeavor. And FD has now made that letter public. There is no mention of doing what the Brethren wanted. Instead, Bradford talked Cecil Samuelson, who was his neighbor, into doing what those who plotted the purge wanted.


I can’t keep up with all this correspondence, but if Midgley Is calling what I posted rubbish, he’s as much of a liar as John Dehlin is.

I also posted a link to the actual document.The pdf is linked in the original thread. I could release the pdf of the emails, too, but I don’t see why I should. So far it doesn’t look to me like anyone is serious about trying to put together a semi-accurate history.

Everybody just wants to promote the myths that make them feel good. People see what they want to see.

_________________
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document


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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Instatute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:26 am 
God

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Lemmie wrote:
The events that transpired in 2012 at the Maxwell Institute have been visited, revisited, and re-revisited over the years by Peterson, accompanied by a mostly rabid Midgley. He tells a story of betrayal and defines it as an “ouster,” but lately, several other voices have disagreed with his version. Most recently, in this fascinating exchange:
Quote:
Professor Mandalorian >> Louis Midgley • 6 hours ago

Louis,

That certainly was an interesting piece of revisionist history.

No ma’am, that’s not history. I was there.


−-
DanielPeterson Mod >> Professor Mandalorian • 2 hours ago • edited

Maybe you were there, PM. Maybe you weren't. I knew nobody in or out of the Maxwell Institute named "Mandalorian."

But I KNOW that I was there. Under my own name.

Professor Midgley's account is accurate.


−-
Professor Mandalorian >> DanielPeterson • 43 minutes ago

Dan,

Brother Midgley’s (and your account) have very little to do with reality.

I know more about that than I feel at liberty to tell. Scholarly decorum prevents me (and many other Maxwell scholars) from airing your dirty laundry.

Dan, I know this is a topic where passions and emotions still run high for you and my intention is not to dredge up painful memories.

Just be aware that I and several other Maxwell scholars respectfully disagree with the narrative you’ve been attempting to foist into the public.


Again, best of luck with the Interpreter. I think it has some potential to be a legitimate and credible voice.

And with that, I will say nothing further on this topic.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4754153477

[bolding added]
Ugh....was so hoping he would say more!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Instatute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:46 am 
God
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Rosebud wrote:
I also posted a link to the actual document.The pdf is linked in the original thread. I could release the pdf of the emails, too, but I don’t see why I should. So far it doesn’t look to me like anyone is serious about trying to put together a semi-accurate history.

Everybody just wants to promote the myths that make them feel good. People see what they want to see.


Please, if you have anything of value, post it so all can be disabused of their pet theories.

_________________
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 


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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Institute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:15 pm 
God

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Midgley cracks me up. This post reads like a bad 007 screenplay. My comments are bracketed and in purple:
Quote:
Louis Midgley a day ago

Dan is right in stressing that others, who despise the Church of Jesus Christ, are busy fashioning a false narrative about the Maxwell Institute. Part of this is that they want to claim that what was published in the Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, that soon morphed into the FARMS Review, was strongly disliked by the Brethren, and hence they eventually had Dan fired as its editor.

The fact is that the firing of Professor Peterson was the work of M. Gerald (Jerry Bradford), and three employees whose names are Morgan Davis, Carl Griffin, and Kristian Heal. For six months I was aware that something nasty was taking place. My diary reminds me that I had decided to cease my volunteer efforts at the Maxwell Institute. My wife ordered me not to resign.

Eventually Morgan Davis had a way of getting to John Dehlin and alerting him[i.e., he emailed him,] to the fact that we were about to publish an essay by Greg Smith exposing Dehlin's violent hostility to his former faith. Dehlin made a huge fuss, and Bradford brought that to Cecil Samuelson's attention, and urged him to order Dan not to publish it, in the hope that Dan would resign. Instead, Dan agreed not to publish it. So Bradford fired Dan by email, while he was in Jerusalem.

I had the memo from Samuelson in my hands long enough to copy it into my diary. [because it was rigged with Very high-tech minaturized explosives, set to go off after one, and ONLY one, reading.] What Samuelson said was that he did not agree with, support or approve of anything that Dehlin has said or done. but that he thought that the Brethren wanted to deal with Dehlin in their own time and way.

What Samuelson did not know[due to Midgley being a double-agent,] is that I had Greg's essay referred by the secretary of the Strengthening the Faith Committee, who had previously taught courses in religion at BYU, and by those Brethren then assigned to that committee. (I was immediately asked if I would approve having Greg's essays among other Seventy. At the same time both Dan and I provided a copies of Greg's essay to Elder Bruce Porter, who was then in charge of meetings of the Twelve Apostles and those Seventy currently assigned in Salt Lake. Bruce was previously a member of my department at BYU, and Dan's close friend. Bruce had very close contact with the Brethren, so at least some of them were aware of Greg's essay on John Dehlin.

What we heard back from both of these efforts to know if we should publish Greg's Smith's essay is that it was far too long, but no one could figure out what to cut. With all this in mind, I urge everyone to read again Elder Holland's sound scolding of the current path they are following.[because the secret message hasn’t been properly decoded yet.]

All this is important because Samuelson simply had no idea what the Brethren thought about Greg Smith's essay. However, we did.

What this means is that Dan's subsequent firing by an email by Jerry Bradford, while Dan was in Jerusalem, blindsided the Brethren.[the plot thickens.] What this means is that the utterly false narrative that has again been spun mostly out of thin air gets all the crucial details wrong.

However, what has just been revealed are the following: that Morgan Davis, who argues passionately that no one should ever respond to anything written by someone who seems to still have his/her name on our membership records. Years later Dehlin was excommunicated for not believing in God, not believing that there even was a Jesus of Nazareth, and for mocking atonement. (Dehlin thought it idiotic that one man must die for the mistakes of another.) Much earlier, all that and much, much more, was in Greg Smith's essay.

But Morgan Davis does not live in the real world. Why? I got a phone call from one of the Brethren asking me when we were going to deal with someone called Denver Snuffer. I said that I had never heard of him. [setting up the sequel: The Brethren take on the Snuffer.]

And that that name sounded like Nasty One in a James Bond movie.[Spoilers, dude! Spoilers!]


https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4753620511



Seriously, though. The “Brethren” were “blindsided”?


Last edited by Lemmie on Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Instatute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:17 pm 
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Exiled wrote:
Rosebud wrote:
I also posted a link to the actual document.The pdf is linked in the original thread. I could release the pdf of the emails, too, but I don’t see why I should. So far it doesn’t look to me like anyone is serious about trying to put together a semi-accurate history.

Everybody just wants to promote the myths that make them feel good. People see what they want to see.


Please, if you have anything of value, post it so all can be disabused of their pet theories.



I have thousands of pages of valuable documents. Why wouldn’t I? I released a little that was pertinent to Dr. Scratch’s annual post because I felt Dr. Scratch made a move in the right direction by giving more credit to MsJack than many of these men who butt heads and puff up their chests. That’s rare in these parts. Even the women condemn women to protect men they view as having power.

(No, that statement shouldn’t be misconstrued as anti-male. I’m not speaking about all men or all women, I’m speaking about particular players in this mess.)

The hit piece was ridiculous. It missed the mark of the Mormon Stories of 2011 and 2012 by miles by focusing in the wrong direction. It was a complete fail because it was blind to the beauty of what was happening in Mormon culture at that moment. As far as I can tell, few to none of the people involved in this mess appear to be able to see past the ends of their noses. Hopefully I’m wrong about that. I don’t know.

Anyway, I don’t really think a message board is a good place to release documents. It’s a good place to create them: dated posts for future historians. I’ve been fairly consistent since the beginning of the time I’ve (unfortunately) spent here and posters here certainly haven’t earned any favors of me.

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Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document


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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Instatute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:38 pm 
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Exiled wrote:
Like most here, I have a hard time believing that the buck stopped with Dr. Samuelson, a 70, formerly a president of the 70, and then President of BYU, the church's flagship university. The matter was sensitive, concerning Dehlin, a person perhaps bent on making a public fuss over the hit piece, at a time when Romney was about to obtain the nomination on behalf of himself and the Mormon machine. The top down controlling brethren were involved. Maybe there were some brethren who sided with the Midge and gang (the brethren disagree with one another at times - big shock).

However, according to the Midge, conveniently for the brethren's appearances, it stopped at Samuelson's level and according to the secret information Dr. Peterson claims to have in the above sic et non post, Salt Lake City wasn't involved. Even so, Salt Lake City always likes to have plausible deniability when dirty work has to be done so stories like the one I am intimately familiar with (E. Poleman being advised to leave the apostles out of "his" decision to change his talk) occur frequently.


It's unthinkable that if the Brethren were emphatically against a change in direction that 2012 would have happened, and then persisted for 7 years (of plenty) despite how loudly the apologists have complained about it. Perhaps their faith in a God who never reveals his hand has primed them to maintain that Salt Lake City is fully on their side, despite the fact that Salt Lake City could twitch a finger and put everything back the way that it was should they care.

The apologists don't understand basic logic. It's very likely that the Brethren who care about the MI (how many do?) are suspicious of the strong postmodern bent. Some may feel that a more tractable positive defense of the faith is needed. However, disliking the present intellectualism and desiring a positive defense of the faith, doesn't mean they want anything like what FARMS was doing. Character assassination campaigns are dicey for an institution increasingly noticeable politically and financially (as Exile notes). Positive defenses in the form of pseudoscience such as Interpreter often publishes that are easy to debunk and draw major embarrassment are just as bad. The brethren who wish a positive defense of the faith have a real problem -- what does that look like these days, and who would do it? I'm pretty sure they don't have Steve Smoot going to war with r/ex-mo reddit in mind either.

So they plead with the current regime to figure that out for them. What else can they do?

whatever is decided upon must also be sustainable. If the Brethren rolled everything back to where it was, they'd have Peterson and Midgley and who else? Is that a sustainable model for the next 10 years and beyond? If for no other reason than the present regime represents a direction that several prominent Mormon intellectuals are okay with and gets BYU into some kind of dialogue with whatever is going on in religious studies out there, it has a level of sustainability that old-school FARMS, essentially a personality cult built around one guy, never had.

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"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Institute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:41 pm 
God

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Quote:
Rosebud:

That’s rare in these parts. Even the women condemn women to protect men they view as having power.

(No, that statement shouldn’t be misconstrued as anti-male. I’m not speaking about all men or all women, I’m speaking about particular players in this mess.)

:rolleyes:
So far, the only “player” I see who is female in this mess is you.

It’s interesting you are quick to defend your statement as not being “anti-male,” when what it really is, is “anti-female.” Your stereotyping is offensive.


Last edited by Lemmie on Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Instatute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:42 pm 
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Quote:
Gadianton:

It's unthinkable that if the Brethren were emphatically against a change in direction that 2012 would have happened, and then persisted for 7 years (of plenty) despite how loudly the apologists have complained about it.

Absolutely.


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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Instatute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:39 pm 
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And for anybody trying to figure out “the” truth, it’s useful to remember that there are many truths. There were lots of players with different roles and experiences.

In order to get to the bottom of it, the pertinent documents need to be collected and put in chronological order. Podcasts, newspaper stories and leaks need to be added by date because people react to them and their reactions become some of the events in the chronology.

It’s a huge project. Nobody just messing around on a message board will do it justice.

_________________
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document


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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Institute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:05 pm 
God

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Kishkumen wrote:
The post from Midgley that elicited this response from "Professor Mandalorian" is provided for the sake of convenience:

Quote:
Someone has asked me to mention what has caused this sudden concern about revisionist history. Dan and I have been going along doing our business, only suddenly to have a Fake Doctor (FD) suddenly posted something called "Morgan Davis and the 'Plot" to Destroy FARMS." I will not link to this weird bit of rubbish. FD suddenly has and has posted confidential correspondence. Why? So that he can fashion his own revisionist history, in which he insist that the Brethren ordered Cecil Samuelson to indirectly fire Professor Peterson as editor of the FARMS Review. I have not counted the single spaced pages when printed but there are probably more that twenty five. Much of what follows the initial commentary, is wild, unfounded speculation by those who detest the faith of Latter-day Saints and are constantly seeking ways to discredit our efforts to defend the faith of the Saints.

And, in addition, as I can now demonstrate, one of those involved in the purge of Professor Peterson wrote a long and very detailed apology for having been involved in that sick endeavor. And FD has now made that letter public. There is no mention of doing what the Brethren wanted. Instead, Bradford talked Cecil Samuelson, who was his neighbor, into doing what those who plotted the purge wanted.

Thank you for adding the context. I find it interesting that Midgley defines the discussions here as “ wild, unfounded speculation by those who detest the faith of Latter-day Saints and are constantly seeking ways to discredit our efforts to defend the faith of the Saints,” but doesn’t acknowledge that the information being discussed was provided by, in my best estimation, current LDS members and BYU employees.


Last edited by Lemmie on Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Instatute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:33 pm 
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Rosebud wrote:
Everybody just wants to promote the myths that make them feel good. People see what they want to see.

That's the only reason religion persists.

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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate, Physics


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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Instatute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:54 pm 
Seedy Academician
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Quote:
Thank you for adding the context. I find it interesting that Midgley defines the discussions here as “ wild, unfounded speculation by those who detest the faith of Latter-day Saints and are constantly seeking ways to discredit our efforts to defend the faith of the Saints,” but doesn’t acknowledge that the information being discussed was provided by, in my best estimation, current LDS members and BYU employees.


Hey, Lemmie:

Yep. It is standard Mopologetics. Those who disagree with Midgley about his gospel hobby are bad people up to no good. Those who agree with him are saints. It is a Manichaean vision of the world that sadly still finds support in some quarters. It is a shame that Midgley's life was consumed by this approach.

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“God came to me in a dream last night and showed me the future. He took me to heaven and I saw Donald Trump seated at the right hand of our Lord.” ~ Pat Robertson
“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Institute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:39 pm 
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When those Maxwellians decommissioned the DeathStar, they were doing the Empire a disservice.

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 Post subject: Re: Other versions of 2012 at the Maxwell Instatute
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:42 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Quote:
Thank you for adding the context. I find it interesting that Midgley defines the discussions here as “ wild, unfounded speculation by those who detest the faith of Latter-day Saints and are constantly seeking ways to discredit our efforts to defend the faith of the Saints,” but doesn’t acknowledge that the information being discussed was provided by, in my best estimation, current LDS members and BYU employees.




Hey, Lemmie:

Yep. It is standard Mopologetics. Those who disagree with Midgley about his gospel hobby are bad people up to no good. Those who agree with him are saints. It is a Manichaean vision of the world that sadly still finds support in some quarters. It is a shame that Midgley's life was consumed by this approach.


Perhaps Maxwell behind closed doors told the apologists, "A new commandment I give unto you, that ye shall refute one another. By this shall men know ye are my apologists."

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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