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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:00 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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Kishkumen wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
Tom:

I’m amazed that Dr. Peterson hasn’t censored that comment. They are really shooting themselves in the foot: he’s basically saying that the Mopologists operated as a kind of “gestapo”: working in concert with the SCMC and carrying out “hits” ordered up by the Brethren. Long ago, I speculated that this is what they were doing, but DCP laughed it off as “absurd.” And yet here’s his beloved pal Lou, saying quite candidly that not only was I *correct,* but I wasn’t even close in terms of describing the extent of this corrupt, Orwellian activity.


Yes, Doctor Scratch. It seems that your arguments in support of such hits ordered by the Brethren were correct. What a deeply disappointing thing to discover after all this time. I wanted to think that the FARMSies were acting as rogue agents on these matters, but it seems that the Brethren wanted to tee up members for excommunication. Well, we knew that Elder Packer interfered with Church discipline, but I had no idea how thoroughly the Brethren were involved in this.

Well, I guess I can console myself with the knowledge that the November Policy was even more despicable and heinous than this, although this is a very close second.


On the one hand, I appreciate the validation in terms of being proven right. But on the other hand.... well, you put it so well, Reverend.

For better or worse, I now find myself forced to reconsider Holland’s speech to the “new” MI. What if Midgley has been right all along, and Holland really *was* excoriating them for failing to do a “hit piece” on (e.g.) Denver Snuffer? What will it do to the Church’s reputation if it becomes widely known that the Brethren “use” the Mopologists as “hit men”?

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:01 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
Dr. Peterson is reporting that Kristian Heal has been watching this thread:

Quote:
So is Kristian. He says that he's disinclined to engage or interject a comment, though, because he expects the matter to fizzle out. After all, he quite correctly observes, "it doesn’t seem to particularly help their narrative."


Huh. That’s not what I heard.


Yes, I am sure this will all fizzle out after six years. . . . ahem.

And what is the narrative that "we" are interested in? I am interested in knowing what happened. That is the MY narrative. At this point I don't give a tinker's damn whether the Brethren supported the ejection of DCP from the editorship of the Review or not. (I never was convinced that they played much of a role, or any role.) It was, as I said, simply a good thing that it happened. To hell with the rest. If a good thing happened, it happened. The reasons why are of historical interest, but they don't change the rightness of it one bit.

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“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:13 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
For better or worse, I now find myself forced to reconsider Holland’s speech to the “new” MI. What if Midgley has been right all along, and Holland really *was* excoriating them for failing to do a “hit piece” on (e.g.) Denver Snuffer? What will it do to the Church’s reputation if it becomes widely known that the Brethren “use” the Mopologists as “hit men”?


Let me put it this way, Midgley could be right. Elder Holland likes to huff and puff in anger about people who lose their testimonies. Does he seem like the kind of person who wouldn't support classic-FARMS shenanigans? I don't know. Having been burned by Dehlin, he might just be of a mind to go after others with his helping hands in the Mopologetic community.

Whatever the case may be, it does not look good, and it frankly is a failure of Christian shepherding. The Smith hit pieces were garbage, and anyone involved in them should be completely ashamed of themselves. Whether they are or not is neither here nor there to me. I have perfect moral clarity on this point, and I don't need an authority figure to tell me when I am right or wrong. Whoever supports this vile behavior is morally compromised, be that person BYU faculty, an apostle, or your average Jane Mormon.

Let them all froth and foam and attack the members of the LDS Church. They are puncturing holes in their sinking dingy. I feel badly for their victims, but, then again, their victims are big boys and girls too, generally speaking. By attacking people who disagree with them, clarity emerges. The attackers are condemned by their own actions.

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“God came to me in a dream last night and showed me the future. He took me to heaven and I saw Donald Trump seated at the right hand of our Lord.” ~ Pat Robertson
“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:05 pm 
God
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Interestingly enough, thanks to this discussion I just read The Midge’s dissertation:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/444800?new ... read-now=1

and it reads like a hit piece on Paul Tillich (check his wiki if you need to understand who he was) who borrows liberally, it appears, from Sartre. I mean, that’s just what I gathered from The Midge’s dissertation. You can also see within his dissertation the seeds of his ‘scientism’ philosophy. It’s absolutely remarkable to me that he and the FARMS cabal had managed to crap out careers on the widow’s mite. Just, wow.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:07 pm 
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I need to address some of Dr. Midgley’s interesting claims:

Quote:
I am actually tempted to post XXXXX’s very long response to Kristian Heal's "Apology." Kishkumen admitted that its contents ran directly counter to his own biases. He clearly believed, or passionately hoped, that Dan had been fired on order from the Brethren, which is simply not true.

Those who have ceased to believe are constantly searching for any signs that their unfaith is justified, and that those who have faith and have responded to the clumsy apologies for apostasy, and rationalizing that follow, are often really angry at those who have pulled the plug on their little game. And they clearly have pounced on the purge in the hope that the Brethren, who otherwise they despise, don't want a genuine defense of the faith and the Saints.


First of all, Dr. Midgley, let’s look at what I wrote about my biases:

Quote:
I went into my reading of this document expecting a strong confirmation of my own biases regarding the events of 2012 and subsequent developments at Maxwell. Admittedly, I did not see a strong confirmation of my biases. I instead see the words of a person who maintains a posture and sympathies much closer to the classic-FARMS crew than I anticipated. Some of this must be attributed to the intent of the letter, which is to heal a breach.


My biases here regard what I assumed Maxwell Institute employees other than the FARMSies thought about the removal of DCP from the editorship and what that meant for legitimate scholarship at MI. I was also frankly surprised to see the author frame the aftermath in spiritual terms, as though he had much to regret. I do not see Mopologetics as a positive, spiritually nourishing enterprise, so I could not imagine regretting its removal from Maxwell in any way. I can, however, imagine regretting harm done to the feelings of fellows in the faith.

Did I passionately desire that Daniel Peterson be fired by the Brethren? No!

Did I hope that removing Peterson from his editorship might signal the following of apostolic wisdom regarding the harm done by means of polemical apologetics coming from FARMS on BYU campus?

Sure.

Was I ever certain that apostolic wisdom directly informed the decision? No. Any such wisdom I would have seen as coming very indirectly in the form of sermons on the topic of how to interact with others when defending the Church.

Dr. Midgley, you would be better off not trying to report on what I think, as what you generally say on the topic is full of errors. I don’t relish the idea of the LDS Gospel not having defenders and a solid defense. My concern is that its defenders behave like good Christians and forward a defense that is sound and not a laughing stock. My guess is that you likely know you are misrepresenting my views and count on your readers’ lack of knowledge to protect you from contradiction.

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“God came to me in a dream last night and showed me the future. He took me to heaven and I saw Donald Trump seated at the right hand of our Lord.” ~ Pat Robertson
“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


Last edited by Kishkumen on Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:26 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
For better or worse, I now find myself forced to reconsider Holland’s speech to the “new” MI. What if Midgley has been right all along, and Holland really *was* excoriating them for failing to do a “hit piece” on (e.g.) Denver Snuffer? What will it do to the Church’s reputation if it becomes widely known that the Brethren “use” the Mopologists as “hit men”?


I was wondering the same thing, reading these latest comments over. It sure does appear as if Dan has a legitimate claim that the administration grossly wronged him, justified by support from general authorities. Kind of like the COO firing a VP of Product for designing the exact product that the CEO asked him to design.


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:27 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Let them all froth and foam and attack the members of the LDS Church. They are puncturing holes in their sinking dingy. I feel badly for their victims, but, then again, their victims are big boys and girls too, generally speaking. By attacking people who disagree with them, clarity emerges. The attackers are condemned by their own actions.


May I use this as a signature line, dear reverend?


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:39 pm 
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Quote:
kishkumen:

Dr. Midgley, you would be better off not trying to report on what I think, as what you generally say on the topic is full of errors. I don’t relish the idea of the LDS Gospel not having defenders and a solid defense. My concern is that its defenders behave like good Christians and forward a defense that is sound and not a laughing stock. My guess is that you likely know you are misrepresenting my views and count on your readers’ lack of knowledge to protect you from contradiction.


I’m glad you responded, Kishkumen. Reading Midgley’s (several) misinterpretations on the matter was becoming more and more uncomfortable, but I didn’t want to bring you into the discussion if that was not your preference. Hopefully it didn’t look too cowardly on our part, but I am positive I was not the only one reading Midgley’s words and silently thinking no, no, NO! as he mangled your comments.


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:49 pm 
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Dr Moore wrote:
May I use this as a signature line, dear reverend?


Thank you for the compliment, Dr. Moore. You may use the quote, of course!

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“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:10 pm 
God
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Kishkumen wrote:
BYU used to hire people before they had completed their dissertation.

If BYU wanted Midgely bad enough, they could have hired him while he was a student at Brown University. Maybe he had some skill set badly lacking at BYU such as long division.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:12 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
I’m glad you responded, Kishkumen. Reading Midgley’s (several) misinterpretations on the matter was becoming more and more uncomfortable, but I didn’t want to bring you into the discussion if that was not your preference. Hopefully it didn’t look too cowardly on our part, but I am positive I was not the only one reading Midgley’s words and silently thinking no, no, NO! as he mangled your comments.


I suppose what is most frustrating about this is Midgley’s desire to make me a public figure on a very small level. If I had wanted to be a public critic of the LDS Church, I would have come out publicly, under my own name, to criticize the LDS Church. Obviously, thanks in no small part to DCP and his friends, plenty of people know of my criticisms. I have exactly one acquaintance standing between me and a member of the First Presidency.

It is not as though my views are a mystery. But I do not criticize the Brethren representing myself as a member of the LDS Church in good standing. Quite the contrary. So why is it necessary for Midgley to mention me by name repeatedly on a public blog? It is rude, at the very least, and most likely intended as a bullying tactic.

Because, after all, that is what some of these guys are wont to do.

Why do I oppose their behavior again?

Ahem.

And it is not bad enough that they make me a public critic against my will, but they also misrepresent my views. They twist my position out of all recognition to make me appear altogether unreasonable.

Think about this: the apologists willingly chose to be public defenders of the LDS Church. That means they voluntarily elected to promote their personal arguments in defense of Mormonism in the public square. Those who come out in public to publish criticisms or attacks on the LDS Church are liable to be the targets of apologetic refutations.

Fair enough. All of the parties concerned elected to be public with their views. But, look at how these things have been done: Mopologists unfairly attack, denigrate, insult, and misrepresent others, regardless of who they are.

Am I John Dehlin? Am I blogging criticisms? Am I running a critical podcast like Infants on Thrones?

No! I am a guy, a former LDS person, posting on a small discussion board running on antiquated code. Yet, for some reason, I am deemed to deserve to be singled out as though I had chosen to be a vocal, public critic of the LDS Church.

Good grief! This is what I get for trying to moderate unfair criticism of DCP on this board, for correcting factual errors about DCP and his friends, etc.? I appreciate that DCP does not blog about me, but it would be nice if Dr. Midgley could develop some netiquette and leave my name out of the comments, or, at the very least, refrain from misrepresenting my views.

Mopologetics punches down.

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“God came to me in a dream last night and showed me the future. He took me to heaven and I saw Donald Trump seated at the right hand of our Lord.” ~ Pat Robertson
“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


Last edited by Kishkumen on Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:14 pm 
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moksha wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:
BYU used to hire people before they had completed their dissertation.

If BYU wanted Midgely bad enough, they could have hired him while he was a student at Brown University. Maybe he had some skill set badly lacking at BYU such as long division.


They did hire him as a student. Until he finished his Ph.D. degree, he was still a student.

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“God came to me in a dream last night and showed me the future. He took me to heaven and I saw Donald Trump seated at the right hand of our Lord.” ~ Pat Robertson
“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:20 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
I’m glad you responded, Kishkumen. Reading Midgley’s (several) misinterpretations on the matter was becoming more and more uncomfortable, but I didn’t want to bring you into the discussion if that was not your preference. Hopefully it didn’t look too cowardly on our part, but I am positive I was not the only one reading Midgley’s words and silently thinking no, no, NO! as he mangled your comments.


I suppose what is most frustrating about this is Midgley’s desire to make me a public figure on a very small level. If I had wanted to be a public critic of the LDS Church, I would have come out publicly, under my own name, to criticize the LDS Church. Obviously, thanks in no small part to DCP and his friends, plenty of people know of my criticisms. I have exactly one acquaintance standing between me and a member of the First Presidency.

[SNIP!]

Mopologetics punches down.

My empathies are with you. Midgley plays dirty.

“...posting on a small discussion board running on antiquated code.” - K
:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:52 pm 
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Dr. Moore wrote:
I was wondering the same thing, reading these latest comments over. It sure does appear as if Dan has a legitimate claim that the administration grossly wronged him, justified by support from general authorities. Kind of like the COO firing a VP of Product for designing the exact product that the CEO asked him to design.


I'm open to this as a possibility. At the end of the day, the CEO can ask for a product, the design team can build it, but if the product isn't viable then that's that, and there is just no way that old-school FARMS mopologetics is a sustainable, long-term product for a university. A savvy product manager knows when to cut bait.

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"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:55 pm 
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by the way, can't remember if it was Kiwi or Midgley, but one of those guys argued in response to exiled, that the "tone" Holland spoke actually meant the opposite everyone assumes, and Holland is looking for a proper tone of chastisement. Folks, you just can't make this stuff up.

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FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:09 pm 
God

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
I'm kind of scratching my head over this whole thing. I'm really trying to make it work because he has some doozies like this:

Quote:
For anyone who might be at all interested, I must point out that the unit I was assigned to occupied one really impressive old German building at Tompkins Barracks. There were four other similar buildings, and those living there also worked in massive new one story buildings where they were busy fashioning very detailed maps of the Soviet Union from U-2 overflights* we were then undertaking until Gary Powers was shot down. But when I was there a Russians drove up to the gate in an automobile clearly marked as Russian, and were waved through. ??? Four Russians agents were inside this supposedly secret operation taking photographs, until someone noticed that very clear markings on that vehicle, which very soon led to the Russians driving right by those on duty at the gate and escaping. How the ____ would he know that??

Later I drove my jeep to the Headquarters of the US Army in Germany, and searched at the gate by US Military Police. I soon discovered that during the night Russian agents from somewhere in Eastern Europe had driven up to that US military post and shot the MPs dead, and the blown a hole in one building and then gone to a part of that building where they again used explosives to enter the place where codes were stored. ??? Then they had all been shot and killed while they were trying to transmit the information they had gotten into. What?!?!

The American public thought that we only had five army divisions stationed in Germany at that time, but the fact is that we had another five divisions of Polish soldiers that we had trained and equipped to provide necessary support for our divisions. Those Polish soldiers had fled Poland as WW II would down, and were doing their best to become Germans.

Those who enjoyed the old MASH TV series, might like to know that our Dental Units had field Dentistry gear, that we took out into the forest and set up and pretended to be ready to fix teeth. That was sort of fun, or at least a break from the usual routine.


and

Quote:
All those many years ago, when I was lodged at Tompkins Barracks just outside of Schwetzingen, Germany, which was then the Spargal (white asparagus) center in Germany, where I was assigned to the 8th Transportation Group (Movement Control). In an actual war we were supposed to direct road traffic in Germany, and this unit once ran the Berlin Air Lift. My first assignment was to write a Missions and Functions manual, in which I made up out of thin air what we currently did, which was essentially nothing other than plan our next leave, and also what we would presumably do if we got into a war with Russia. I wish I had saved that hundred page thing I wrote.** Then I was assigned to draft a proposal to reorganize the entire operation. This went through four drafts. When it was finally adopted, it was made Top Secret***, and I could not see it, even though I had in a drawer all the drafts, with the MOS (military occupation specialty) for everyone if and when it was fully staffed, all of which was my invention.

Then, when I went to Zurich to meet my bride to be, so that we could first be married in Bern, Switzerland, and then be the first couple sealed in the Temple in Zollikofen immediately after it was dedicated, I soon found that I had been transferred to the Dental Corp...

that I can't really make fit into a post-1952 timeline that includes a draft, military service, pre-doctorate 'training' at BYU, and then living in Providence for his Ph.D., AND THEN starting to teach at BYU in 1960. :/ It's all very tight...

* The first U2 test flight was in 1955, which would put Midgley's military service somewhere between '56 and ?? This isn't making sense.

** This makes absolutely no sense that a military unit ran by Officers would let an enlisted man do this, a man in his first assignment knowing absolutely nothing about staff functions, plans, and operations.

*** This is just an outright lie. It's a stolen valor fabrication only matched by Hugh Nibley's ____.

I was stationed in Stuttgart 1962-1965 as an officer in VII Corps with 3 divisions- 24th, 3rd id, qe 4t armd. in V corpw there were 2 divisions 8th id and ??. Every soldier was trained to be on the lookout for the Russian Military Liasion Missions-these were legit by US-Russian agreement that the Russian teams could move sorta freely in West Germany. If spotted which was everyday, soldiers would report "i saw a RMLM license plate xxx outside Thompson barracks yesterday-the guys were just looking around and they took a couple of pix of the motor pool and the barracks-then left". these spot reports were consolidated at 7th Army level to keep track of Russian surveillance in West Germany. So movement was limited- for example if the RMLM tried to drive on a post, they woulde be asked to turn around- most often they did- the US did not want a international incident nor did the Russians. sometimes such incidents occurred- for example if the RMLM took pix of petrol or ammo storage facilities, they would be asked my MPs to turn over the film. Remember the Russians allowed US Military Liaison Missions in the East- sorta low level spy vs spy and live and let live. Woody probably exaggerates what the RMLM s were up to but i think the processing of U2 film at a not very secure Army building just doesn't seem right. The u2 films were grabbed by airforce planes who know where and likely processed in the usa- until powers was caught this was TS stuff and may still be. having the Russians crash a guarp post and kill people to get that film is much a Nibley tall tale look a like.

So woody was a clerk typist assigned to transportation, dental and perhaps a couple other organizations seems right but to have him part of the movement of large numbers of troops long key routes holding flags with Umlitung?? seems a stretch. Driving his own jeep like SGT Ph.D. Nibley is likely bulls*^t too. Writing a missions and functions manual for some key organization at the TS level is also likely BS-perhaps he typed the manual or part of it- we need to hear how he got his TS clearance as well. Outside U S war OPLANs and sensitive intel info there was not a lot of TS material handled evenby officers.

Can wait for Woody to write his PFC Ph.D. award winning post WWII experiences? Please Woody share some more, the hole you are digging gets deeper and deeper!

k


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:56 pm 
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Gadianton wrote:
Dr. Moore wrote:
I was wondering the same thing, reading these latest comments over. It sure does appear as if Dan has a legitimate claim that the administration grossly wronged him, justified by support from general authorities. Kind of like the COO firing a VP of Product for designing the exact product that the CEO asked him to design.


I'm open to this as a possibility. At the end of the day, the CEO can ask for a product, the design team can build it, but if the product isn't viable then that's that, and there is just no way that old-school FARMS mopologetics is a sustainable, long-term product for a university. A savvy product manager knows when to cut bait.


Yes: agreed. We have to assume that there is a reason why the Mopologists--notably DCP--keep saying, "You weren't there! You weren't there!" What is it they're hiding? We know a lot of the basic facts: i.e., that DCP was told that the Review was going to head in a new direction (and remember, he *was not* fired; Bradford simply told him that it was going to go in a "new direction." Peterson effectively quit, just like a petulant child storming off in anger). None of the old, classic-FARMS people has been invited back to the MI, and, in fact, things have moved in the opposite direction, with John Gee leaving the Institute. Instead, the MI has attracted some of Mormonism's top scholars, such as Terryl Givens. Remember, too, that in his widely-circulated email reply to Bradford, Peterson made multiple threats concerning money and funding. DCP wrote recently that the whole affair was a "Provo" thing and not an "Salt Lake City" thing, but that is just wrong: "Provo things" are, de facto, "Salt Lake City things."

There is evidence that the Brethren change their mind and side with different "factions" at different times. Given everything that happened, I think it's reasonable to assume that one or more of the Brethren sided with Bradford and Samuelson back in 2012 and agreed with the "change of direction." (Dehlin, at the time, had persuasive evidence that attack-style Mopologetics was driving people away from the Church.) Meanwhile, not long after the 2012 "purge," Hamblin posted his blog entry about how his own academic department thinks that "Interpreter" and other ilk is not "real scholarship." Look: DCP and Midgley are not the only people from BYU that the Brethren listen to. I see know reason why any of us should believe that those two jokers hold any more sway over the General Authorities than, say, Jerry Bradfrod, Spencer Fluhman, Morgan Davis, or Kristian Heal. And it needs to be said: Heal's letter seems to be the main thing that has got them stirred up at the moment, but if you are like me, you also remember Heal turning up in the "Comments" of SeN, or on the MDD board to gently chastise DCP for his (DCP's) misrepresentations of what happened.

A few other thoughts. In response to Exiled's assertions re: "negative Mopologetics," Peterson responds thusly:

DCP wrote:
You think that you're leveling an accusation against us. You think that we favor bad tone and attempts to get others excommunicated, that we disdain the idea of loving doubterss, and so forth. You imagine that we should feel targeted by Elder Holland.

You've bought into the mythos of "Mopologetics" that has been so carefully nurtured on your home board.

It was never accurate.


The thing is, Midgley himself indicates that the idea of Mopologists as "hit men" *is* accurate:

Midgley wrote:
But Morgan Davis does not live in the real world. Why? I got a phone call from one of the Brethren asking me when we were going to deal with someone called Denver Snuffer.


So, is Midgley lying? Joking? Because this would seem to be a direct confirmation that the Mopologists conduct "hatchet jobs" on direct orders from the Brethren. (Elsewhere, Midgley indicated that the Mopologists work in concert with the Strengthening Church Members Committee--i.e., the Church's espionage arm.)

Finally, there is the issue of the "Witnesses" film. Peterson has refused to publish the budget details of the movie. What if the Church itself supplied a big chunk of the funding? If that were the case, I'm sure it would go a long ways towards reassuring the Mopologists that they are in the good graces of the Brethren. (A lot more so than being mentioned in the same breath as FAIR Mormon and Book of Mormon Central.) It would signify that Church leaders are once again okay with earmarking money for an organization that "goes dirty" and engages in nasty Mopologetics (e.g., Gee's hit piece on Jana Reiss).

In summary: I think the Mopologists are distorting the truth there. Morgan Davis's letter indicates that there was a groundswell of support at BYU in favor of removing Peterson as editor of the "Review," and there *is* evidence that Elder Holland (and perhaps others) had had enough of the Mopologists' antics. (Remember: all of this was preceding by the 2nd Watson Letter; Schryver's antics; DCP watching a "hot booty shaking video," and a number of other things.) Now, it may be that Holland has since changed his mind, but even so, he hasn't changed it enough to reinstate these clowns under the official aegis of BYU. Luckily for the Brethren, it's probably easy enough to placate the Mopologists by tossing them a bone here and there. But they will never regain the spot atop the mountain that they used to occupy. "Interpreter," at the end of the day, is still really just a blog.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:22 pm 
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Midgley continues to demonstrate that Peterson will lie for the church in any and all circumstances. It is amusing and yet sad. Those two cannot get on the same page and correlate their information, which demonstrates that if the church isn't lying, then its paid apologists most definitely are doing so.

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:39 pm 
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To quote the letter.
Quote:
I now see that a nobler vision for all of us could have been sought and obtained through peaceful and collegial discussion and humble and prayerful deliberation.


For some reason the expression "you can't stage manage a grizzly bear" springs to mind. There were too many grizzly bears in the Maxwell Institute to make such discussions possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:56 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Midgley continues to demonstrate that Peterson will lie for the church in any and all circumstances. It is amusing and yet sad. Those two cannot get on the same page and correlate their information, which demonstrates that if the church isn't lying, then its paid apologists most definitely are doing so.


DCP once tried to do Mopologetics for the SCMC (and by extension, the Church) by relating his account of serving as an "agent" for the SCMC. His story involved him sitting in a room with some poor sucker for something like four hours. Can you imagine? Peterson explained it like he was doing some huge favor for the guy. It sounded more like a confrontation / interrogation to me. Now, though, given what Midgley has said, I tend to think that was just one dealing among many that DCP has had with the SCMC. Per Midgley, it sounds like the Mopologists maintained quite a close relationship with that incredibly creepy, Orwellian group.

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"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:35 pm 
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Quote:
DCP once tried to do Mopologetics for the SCMC (and by extension, the Church) by relating his account of serving as an "agent" for the SCMC. His story involved him sitting in a room with some poor sucker for something like four hours. Can you imagine? Peterson explained it like he was doing some huge favor for the guy. It sounded more like a confrontation / interrogation to me. Now, though, given what Midgley has said, I tend to think that was just one dealing among many that DCP has had with the SCMC. Per Midgley, it sounds like the Mopologists maintained quite a close relationship with that incredibly creepy, Orwellian group.


right, and while it's believable some of the brethren would be into disciple-scholar-interrogators it's just not a sustainable program for a university.

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FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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