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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:35 pm 
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moksha wrote:
Dr. Midgley, since you are following this thread, why not post some of your observations?

Midgley is a coward. Notice that the only time he posted off Peterson's safe space in recent history (e.g. on Gina Colvins blog), he got his ass handed to him by multiple posters. In response, he immediately retreated to Petersons blog, from which he continues to trash every poster who responded to him, only because he knows Peterson will protect him. That's a coward. A candy ass coward.


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:24 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
moksha wrote:
Dr. Midgley, since you are following this thread, why not post some of your observations?

Midgley is a coward. Notice that the only time he posted off Peterson's safe space in recent history (e.g. on Gina Colvins blog), he got his ass handed to him by multiple posters. In response, he immediately retreated to Petersons blog, from which he continues to trash every poster who responded to him, only because he knows Peterson will protect him. That's a coward. A candy ass coward.


I wish there were upvoting on this board.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:49 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
moksha wrote:
Dr. Midgley, since you are following this thread, why not post some of your observations?

Midgley is a coward. Notice that the only time he posted off Peterson's safe space in recent history (e.g. on Gina Colvins blog), he got his ass handed to him by multiple posters. In response, he immediately retreated to Petersons blog, from which he continues to trash every poster who responded to him, only because he knows Peterson will protect him. That's a coward. A candy ass coward.


Sometimes I wonder if DCP is really protecting him. Or does he like being seen as the good cop?

It is a bit hard to judge Midgley’s mental status. If something is up he hides it well, but I noticed that when he writes a lot on SEN he seems to recycle his arguments quite often even if they don’t really fit what is being discussed.


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:59 am 
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It should be noted I’m having a very hard time finding any record of his military service*. I also find it curious his service is never mentioned in any of his bios. I don’t know if he’s quite at the Hugh “I bumped into Hitler” Nibley stolen valor level yet, but it’s head scratching nonetheless.

* I put in a request for his service records about two months ago, and I’m still waiting on a response.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:00 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
It should be noted I’m having a very hard time finding any record of his military service*. I also find it curious his service is never mentioned in any of his bios. I don’t know if he’s quite at the Hugh “I bumped into Hitler” Nibley stolen valor level yet, but it’s head scratching nonetheless.

* I put in a request for his service records about two months ago, and I’m still waiting on a response.

- Doc
I would love to have the upvote option!


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:03 pm 
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candygal wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
It should be noted I’m having a very hard time finding any record of his military service*. I also find it curious his service is never mentioned in any of his bios. I don’t know if he’s quite at the Hugh “I bumped into Hitler” Nibley stolen valor level yet, but it’s head scratching nonetheless.

* I put in a request for his service records about two months ago, and I’m still waiting on a response.

- Doc
I would love to have the upvote option!


Yeah, something is a little wonky with his stories. He was born in 1931, which would've made him 18 in 1949, when only a little over 9,000 men were drafted into service. He stated in one of his Disqus comments:

Quote:
I just took what being drafted into the US Army brought, although I loved being able to be assigned to duty in Germany, since that opened the way for my wife and I to be the first couples sealed in this dispensation in Europe.


Conscription according to Wiki was ~21 months. In his official FAIR bio he doesn't mention being drafted into military service which I find bizarre, frankly. Furthermore he states he served a mission in 1950-52 to New Zealand. From his Wiki profile we see this:

Quote:
Midgley studied at the University of Utah for his bachelor's and master's degrees.[4][5] He took an extended leave to serve as a missionary for the LDS Church in New Zealand 1950–1952.[5] On his mission, he first encountered sectarian anti-Mormon arguments.[6]

He earned a Ph.D. in political science from Brown University. His dissertation focused on Paul Tillich. Midgley taught political science, specifically, the history of political and legal philosophy, at Brigham Young University from 1960


So.

March, 1949 - 18 years old

He ingressed into the University of Utah, but he took 'extended leave' from his studies to serve a mission.

1949 - 1950 - Student at the U of U

1950 - 1952 - LDS Missionary

1953 - 1959 or '60 - Undergrad, Graduate Student, and Ph.D. program at Brown

So, somewhere in there he had to fit in being drafted, going to Basic, AIT, his military service, travel, getting married, AND moving his wife to Germany? What? That doesn't make any sense.

I'm going to search through his Disqus comments for any other mentions of his military service, because right now something isn't adding up. Can anyone in the academic community tell us generally how long it takes, say, a motivated wunderkind to get their Ph.D. out of high school?

- Doc

eta: A little more sleuthing he got married in Switzerland September 16, 1955. He lived in Mannheim, Germany, for ~9 months prior to returning to Salt Lake City, where returned to the U of U, and then for four years in Providence, RI finishing his Ph.D. at Brown.

I'm having a hard time with timelines now. It's possible he was drafted in 1952 or '53. But then he'd have to start school again in '56, wrap up his undergrad, masters, and Ph.D. in just four years. Does a Ph.D. program take four years?

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Last edited by Doctor CamNC4Me on Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:16 pm 
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To go all the way through Ph.D. from freshman undergrad can take 8-10 years.

BYU used to hire people before they had completed their dissertation.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:41 pm 
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I'm kind of scratching my head over this whole thing. I'm really trying to make it work because he has some doozies like this:

Quote:
For anyone who might be at all interested, I must point out that the unit I was assigned to occupied one really impressive old German building at Tompkins Barracks. There were four other similar buildings, and those living there also worked in massive new one story buildings where they were busy fashioning very detailed maps of the Soviet Union from U-2 overflights* we were then undertaking until Gary Powers was shot down. But when I was there a Russians drove up to the gate in an automobile clearly marked as Russian, and were waved through. ??? Four Russians agents were inside this supposedly secret operation taking photographs, until someone noticed that very clear markings on that vehicle, which very soon led to the Russians driving right by those on duty at the gate and escaping. How the ____ would he know that??

Later I drove my jeep to the Headquarters of the US Army in Germany, and searched at the gate by US Military Police. I soon discovered that during the night Russian agents from somewhere in Eastern Europe had driven up to that US military post and shot the MPs dead, and the blown a hole in one building and then gone to a part of that building where they again used explosives to enter the place where codes were stored. ??? Then they had all been shot and killed while they were trying to transmit the information they had gotten into. What?!?!

The American public thought that we only had five army divisions stationed in Germany at that time, but the fact is that we had another five divisions of Polish soldiers that we had trained and equipped to provide necessary support for our divisions. Those Polish soldiers had fled Poland as WW II would down, and were doing their best to become Germans.

Those who enjoyed the old MASH TV series, might like to know that our Dental Units had field Dentistry gear, that we took out into the forest and set up and pretended to be ready to fix teeth. That was sort of fun, or at least a break from the usual routine.


and

Quote:
All those many years ago, when I was lodged at Tompkins Barracks just outside of Schwetzingen, Germany, which was then the Spargal (white asparagus) center in Germany, where I was assigned to the 8th Transportation Group (Movement Control). In an actual war we were supposed to direct road traffic in Germany, and this unit once ran the Berlin Air Lift. My first assignment was to write a Missions and Functions manual, in which I made up out of thin air what we currently did, which was essentially nothing other than plan our next leave, and also what we would presumably do if we got into a war with Russia. I wish I had saved that hundred page thing I wrote.** Then I was assigned to draft a proposal to reorganize the entire operation. This went through four drafts. When it was finally adopted, it was made Top Secret***, and I could not see it, even though I had in a drawer all the drafts, with the MOS (military occupation specialty) for everyone if and when it was fully staffed, all of which was my invention.

Then, when I went to Zurich to meet my bride to be, so that we could first be married in Bern, Switzerland, and then be the first couple sealed in the Temple in Zollikofen immediately after it was dedicated, I soon found that I had been transferred to the Dental Corp...


that I can't really make fit into a post-1952 timeline that includes a draft, military service, pre-doctorate 'training' at BYU, and then living in Providence for his Ph.D., AND THEN starting to teach at BYU in 1960. :/ It's all very tight...

* The first U2 test flight was in 1955, which would put Midgley's military service somewhere between '56 and ?? This isn't making sense.

** This makes absolutely no sense that a military unit ran by Officers would let an enlisted man do this, a man in his first assignment knowing absolutely nothing about staff functions, plans, and operations.

*** This is just an outright lie. It's a stolen valor fabrication only matched by Hugh Nibley's ____.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:01 pm 
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I must admit that I came to detest the name Kilmer, and hence that poem, when I was snatched from the dreadful experience of undergoing "basic training" at Fort Ord in California, which I was able to discover was not far from a community that very much reminded me of New Zealand, and after visiting that neck of the woods. Well, I did Clerk Typist school, which I very much enjoyed. Then I was flown to somewhere near the infamous Camp Kilmer just after Christmas to wait to board a blood "Troop Ship" headed from Bremerhaven in northern Germany.

...

All this just to indicate that I have wild memories of Camp Kilmer. Two of us escaped that place very early one morning and spent the day in New York City, and took a bus that went right to the gate, and had an MP board and ask for our passes. He got to the two sitting right in front of me and my friend, and then gave up checking. My friend and I figured that either an MP would just ignore our not having passes, or that his officer would ignore it, rather than fill out papers, since it was not at all likely that they would have held a court, since the next day we were to board that Troop Ship. So the next day we were out of Camp Kilmer, but I can't get that poem out of my head.


I'll just note that Professor Louis C. Midgley put on record he was AWOL at one point. It appears he was a clerk and a typist, which makes the story above about 'writing' a manual and some other documents come into focus. He was basically a secretary claiming to be a master strategist and CEO.

Not looking good for The Midge.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:22 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Quote:
I must admit that I came to detest the name Kilmer, and hence that poem, when I was snatched from the dreadful experience of undergoing "basic training" at Fort Ord in California, which I was able to discover was not far from a community that very much reminded me of New Zealand, and after visiting that neck of the woods. Well, I did Clerk Typist school, which I very much enjoyed. Then I was flown to somewhere near the infamous Camp Kilmer just after Christmas to wait to board a blood "Troop Ship" headed from Bremerhaven in northern Germany.

...

All this just to indicate that I have wild memories of Camp Kilmer. Two of us escaped that place very early one morning and spent the day in New York City, and took a bus that went right to the gate, and had an MP board and ask for our passes. He got to the two sitting right in front of me and my friend, and then gave up checking. My friend and I figured that either an MP would just ignore our not having passes, or that his officer would ignore it, rather than fill out papers, since it was not at all likely that they would have held a court, since the next day we were to board that Troop Ship. So the next day we were out of Camp Kilmer, but I can't get that poem out of my head.


I'll just note that Professor Louis C. Midgley put on record he was AWOL at one point. It appears he was a clerk and a typist, which makes the story above about 'writing' a manual and some other documents come into focus. He was basically a secretary claiming to be a master strategist and CEO.

Not looking good for The Midge.

- Doc

He was then transferred to the Dental Corp? Don’t you have to be a dentist for that?


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:51 pm 
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Nah, there are all sorts of support personnel assigned to support any given unit.

So far we have him assigned to a transportation unit, a dental command, and possibly a third unit where a security clearance was required. <- That one is questionable because of his U2 intel claims.

Whatever the case may be, I can’t work out where he fit an enlistment into his life from 1950 - 1959 unless he somehow accelerated his academic ‘training’. Also, some of his military experiences appear to be outright fabrications.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:57 pm 
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Quote:
unless he somehow accelerated his academic ‘training’.


I don't know how much this helps the timeline, but lets remember by his own account, his Ph.D. is questionable. According to him, the administration was gobsmacked over his testimony and his missionary experiences, and was afforded an arrange of favors, including skipping multiple courses required for graduation and allowed his mission experiences to suffice as credit for the political science courses.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:59 pm 
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Tompkins Barracks and the US Army headquarters were just outside Heidelberg, deep in southwestern Germany. It would have been a long trip by car for Russian agents coming from "eastern Europe". And if would have been awfully strange to mount a noisy and obvious attack in order to steal codes. Once your enemy even suspects you've got their codes, they change their codes, so you only learn how to decode their old messages. You don't send agents to die for history like that; the point of stealing codes is to do it without the enemy realizing, so that they keep on using the same codes that you can now read. So you might conceivably sneak in and out with a camera, but you definitely don't blow a hole in the wall and sit there transmitting the codebooks over radio until you get shot.

And of course an assault on US Army headquarters with explosives and Russian agents shooting American soldiers at an American base in southwest Germany in the 1950s would have been front-page news all over the world. Even if it could have been hushed up, why would anyone have wanted to hush it up?

What we learn from Midgley's story about the great Russian attack is that back in the 1950's Midgley was the kind of guy to whom other soldiers told absurd stories—and he believed them.

I think it is plausible that an army clerk might have been assigned to type up drafts of documents that were later classified—not compose them. And dental units do need clerks. I'm a little more skeptical that a clerk would have had his own jeep to drive. Driving a jeep is normally a job in itself, and you don't drive yourself around—you're somebody's driver. But Midgley might well have ridden in jeeps a few times.

His timeline needs him to squeeze college, mission, and military service all into the 1950s. That's a busy decade but I think it could be just feasible.


Last edited by Physics Guy on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:06 pm 
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Dr. Midgley:
Quote:
Dan is right in stressing that others, who despise the Church of Jesus Christ, are busy fashioning a false narrative about the Maxwell Institute. Part of this is that they want to claim that what was published in the Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, that soon morphed into the FARMS Review, was strongly disliked by the Brethren, and hence they eventually had Dan fired as its editor.

The fact is that the firing of Professor Peterson was the work of M. Gerald (Jerry Bradford), and three employees whose names are Morgan Davis, Carl Griffin, and Kristian Heal. For six months I was aware that something nasty was taking place. My diary reminds me that I had decided to cease my volunteer efforts at the Maxwell Institute. My wife ordered me not to resign.

Eventually Morgan Davis had a way of getting to John Dehlin and alerting him to the fact that we were about to publish an essay by Greg Smith exposing Dehlin's violent hostility to his former faith. Dehlin made a huge fuss, and Bradford brought that to Cecil Samuelson's attention, and urged him to order Dan not to publish it, in the hope that Dan would resign. Instead, Dan agreed not to publish it. So Bradford fired Dan by email, while he was in Jerusalem.

I had the memo from Samuelson in my hands long enough to copy it into my diary. What Samuelson said was that he did not agree with, support or approve of anything that Dehlin has said or done. but that he thought that the Brethren wanted to deal with Dehlin in their own time and way. What Samuelson did not know is that I had Greg's essay referred by the secretary of the Strengthening the Faith Committee, who had previously taught courses in religion at BYU, and by those Brethren then assigned to that committee. (I was immediately asked if I would approve having Greg's essays among other Seventy. At the same time both Dan and I provided a copies of Greg's essay to Elder Bruce Porter, who was then in charge of meetings of the Twelve Apostles and those Seventy currently assigned in Salt Lake. Bruce was previously a member of my department at BYU, and Dan's close friend. Bruce had very close contact with the Brethren, so at least some of them were aware of Greg's essay on John Dehlin.

What we heard back from both of these efforts to know if we should publish Greg's Smith's essay is that it was far too long, but no one could figure out what to cut. With all this in mind, I urge everyone to read again Elder Holland's sound scolding of the current path they are following.

All this is important because Samuelson simply had no idea what the Brethren thought about Greg Smith's essay. However, we did.

What this means is that Dan's subsequent firing by an email by Jerry Bradford, while Dan was in Jerusalem, blindsided the Brethren. What this means is that the utterly false narrative that has again been spun mostly out of thin air gets all the crucial details wrong.

However, what has just been revealed are the following: that Morgan Davis, who argues passionately that no one should ever respond to anything written by someone who seems to still have his/her name on our membership records. Years later Dehlin was excommunicated for not believing in God, not believing that there even was a Jesus of Nazareth, and for mocking atonement. (Dehlin thought it idiotic that one man must die for the mistakes of another.) Much earlier, all that and much, much more, was in Greg Smith's essay.

But Morgan Davis does not live in the real world. Why? I got a phone call from one of the Brethren asking me when we were going to deal with someone called Denver Snuffer. I said that I had never heard of him. And that that name sounded like Nasty One in a James Bond movie.

That was weird, wild stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:14 pm 
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And, as I said above, BYU hired people ABD—before they had finished their dissertation. They did so when I was an undergrad there.

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Last edited by Kishkumen on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:15 pm 
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In the Brown University library records of dissertations, fifth entry down the page, you can see that Midgley received his Ph.D. in 1965. So if he joined faculty at BYU in 1960 then Kishkumen is right that he started teaching before he got his doctorate. Could he have spent as little as one year actually living in Providence as a doctoral candidate and then gone back to Utah to slowly finish his thesis, while working, over the next five years?

EDIT: And entry 4464, at the bottom of page 502 of this Bibliography on Daniel Webster, is Midgley's M.S. thesis from the University of Utah. It gives the year as 1957.


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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:31 pm 
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Physics Guy wrote:
In the Brown University library records of dissertations, fifth entry down the page, you can see that Midgley received his Ph.D. in 1965. So if he joined faculty at BYU in 1960 then Kishkumen is right that he started teaching before he got his doctorate. Could he have spent as little as one year actually living in Providence as a doctoral candidate and then gone back to Utah to slowly finish his thesis, while working, over the next five years?


Hrm. I wonder why his wife’s (RIP) obit mentioned they spent four years in Providence while he worked on his Ph.D.. Perhaps you and Kish are right in that he was hired by BYU and then allowed to pursue his Ph.D. while in the employ of the Y. So, it’s all kind of working out now. He could’ve served in the Army, came back, earned his degrees, was hired by the Y, and then sent off to Brown to get that coveted Ph.D..

Edited. Hrm. I see PG’s edit above. I don’t know what to make of it all now. Maybe he was, uh, drafted after getting his masters? I believe they changed the draft in the early 50’s to include married men as potential draftees. I may need fact checking on that. And that’d tuck in nicely with his U2 intel bit. He could’ve served his time after ‘57, but then why would he have been living in Germany during the time he was earning his undergrad and masters? I think I’m back to scratching my head in confusion.

- Doc

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Last edited by Doctor CamNC4Me on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:34 pm 
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Wow! Some absolutely *stunning* revelations on this thread. So, based on Dr. Cam’s research, it would seem that Midgley *lied* about his military service? Not that such a thing is unprecedented, but wow. If it’s true, it’s absolutely despicable. Shameful. I almost think that this discussion should be broken off into a new thread so that it can get the full attention it deserves.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:37 pm 
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Tom:

I’m amazed that Dr. Peterson hasn’t censored that comment. They are really shooting themselves in the foot: he’s basically saying that the Mopologists operated as a kind of “gestapo”: working in concert with the SCMC and carrying out “hits” ordered up by the Brethren. Long ago, I speculated that this is what they were doing, but DCP laughed it off as “absurd.” And yet here’s his beloved pal Lou, saying quite candidly that not only was I *correct,* but I wasn’t even close in terms of describing the extent of this corrupt, Orwellian activity.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:52 pm 
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Dr. Peterson is reporting that Kristian Heal has been watching this thread:

Quote:
So is Kristian. He says that he's disinclined to engage or interject a comment, though, because he expects the matter to fizzle out. After all, he quite correctly observes, "it doesn’t seem to particularly help their narrative."


Huh. That’s not what I heard.

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 Post subject: Re: Reflections on the “Apology Letter”
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:55 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
Tom:

I’m amazed that Dr. Peterson hasn’t censored that comment. They are really shooting themselves in the foot: he’s basically saying that the Mopologists operated as a kind of “gestapo”: working in concert with the SCMC and carrying out “hits” ordered up by the Brethren. Long ago, I speculated that this is what they were doing, but DCP laughed it off as “absurd.” And yet here’s his beloved pal Lou, saying quite candidly that not only was I *correct,* but I wasn’t even close in terms of describing the extent of this corrupt, Orwellian activity.


Yes, Doctor Scratch. It seems that your arguments in support of such hits ordered by the Brethren were correct. What a deeply disappointing thing to discover after all this time. I wanted to think that the FARMSies were acting as rogue agents on these matters, but it seems that the Brethren wanted to tee up members for excommunication. Well, we knew that Elder Packer interfered with Church discipline, but I had no idea how thoroughly the Brethren were involved in this.

Well, I guess I can console myself with the knowledge that the November Policy was even more despicable and heinous than this, although this is a very close second.

_________________
“God came to me in a dream last night and showed me the future. He took me to heaven and I saw Donald Trump seated at the right hand of our Lord.” ~ Pat Robertson
“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


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