The Sacred Curse

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Simon Southerton
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Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by Simon Southerton »

Thanks Shulem.

Ed Goble wrote:That's what I thought. They used the wrong samples when archaeology is clear that they were ancient Canaanites, not modern Jews. I challenge you to actually admit that you have no evidence for continuity of ancient Canaanite DNA in the modern Askenazi and Sephardic populations. You people don't need to talk down to me like I'm an idiot when I see to the obvious and to call you out on the obvious. Nothing else but samplings of ancient Canaanite DNA will do, period. No other sample is acceptable. Otherwise the foundations of your claims are categorically flawed. Archaeology is absolutely clear on what population the native Americans must be compared to.


I could almost hear the sound of his mind closing from here. He's showing excellent apologetic form. By the way, he hasn't purchased TSC and it's clear he won't.
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
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Simon Southerton
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Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by Simon Southerton »

Craig Paxton wrote:Simon,

Just a quick question, in my reddit review of your book a poster asked if you addressed the “bottle neck”and “founder effect” apologetic arguments which plays such a large diversionary role in the churches DNA Essay. Can you elaborate on how population genetics impacts these arguments?

Thanks


These are excuses apologists have used for why it might be hard to find mtDNA from the Middle East. They are basically arguing that Lehite DNA got diluted to the point that its hard to detect it.

This is not a problem with the whole genome where up to a million markers are used. The level of sensitivity of whole genome research is off the charts compared to mitochondrial DNA. Just like our mobile phone and our computer's hard drive, our entire genome carries vast amounts of historical information! If you can't detect Israelite DNA, chances are it was never there. This is covered in detail in my book.
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama

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Re: The Sacred Curse

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Ed Goble wrote:That's what I thought. They used the wrong samples when archaeology is clear that they were ancient Canaanites, not modern Jews. I challenge you to actually admit that you have no evidence for continuity of ancient Canaanite DNA in the modern Askenazi and Sephardic populations. You people don't need to talk down to me like I'm an idiot when I see to the obvious and to call you out on the obvious. Nothing else but samplings of ancient Canaanite DNA will do, period. No other sample is acceptable. Otherwise the foundations of your claims are categorically flawed. Archaeology is absolutely clear on what population the native Americans must be compared to.

Bro. Goble,

Meaning no disrespect, but it is unlikely that you would be posing such questions, or making such uninformed statements, if you had spent more time reading the relevant science and less time reading fact free apologetic nonsense. While Dr. Southerton may well extend you the courtesy of further explanation, I would point out that the reasons your main ill informed question and expressed concerns are irrelevant have been addressed on this board more than once by Dr. Southerton and others. Nonetheless, here goes again - step by step.

1. Simply put, population genetic analyses show very clearly that the pre-Columbian Amerindian populations in the New World derived exclusively from groups that lived in relative isolation in northeastern Asia for thousands of years prior to migrating to the Americas - long enough to accrue genetic markers unique to that relatively isolated population. This is settled science.*

2. Starting some 20,000 years ago, climatic conditions became such that members of these groups living in Siberia and Beringia could begin migrations into the Americas via the Bering land bridge (via Beringia). There is evidence for migration over land as well as just offshore along the coast.

These groups all carried genetic markers accrued during the Beringia "hold up" period prior to the climatic shift that allowed further eastern migration. This means that pre-Columbian Amerindian populations all carried specific genetic markers from the time of their ancestors in Northeast Asia.

3. As stated upthread, it is possible to determine the time when a specific genetic mutation enters a population. Also as stated, there is no evidence that Old World genetic markers, not already in the pre-migration Beringia population DNA, entered the Amerindian population prior to the time of the arrival of the first Europeans** in the New World in the 15th century.

4. As Physics Guy pointed out, it doesn’t matter if one is looking for markers from Askenazi, Sephardic or Cannanite populations. Any one of them, or any genetic markers from Europe, the Middle East, or anywhere else but via Beringia, would have been detected as "foreign" in terms of the time they entered the Amerindian genome prior to the 15th century CE.***

5. As Dr. Southerton has pointed out, the overwhelming evidence for no additional Old World DNA insertion events into the Amerindian genome before the time of Columbus comes from decades of extensive analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and somatic DNA in general.

6. Most importantly, these conclusions reflect the strong and well supported position of mainstream scientists fully engaged in, or contributing to, population genetics. The data base in support of the mainstream science view is large indeed and grows each year with technical advances and increasing amounts of genetic test data readily available.
_______

*Elsewhere on this board are numerous references to peer reviewed publications, including comprehensive review papers on the subject and even a description of the genetic markers carried by 9,000 year old Kennewick man, that support the simplified general narrative above. I could find and list them for you, but given that you seem unwilling to even read the outstanding book mentioned in the OP, I fail to see the point.

** And yes, we know that Vikings arrived in the Canadian Maritimes before the 15th century. However, the best documented genetic interchange from this encounter ended up with Amerindian DNA migrating to Europe by way of an Amerindian female pregnant with a Viking child who returned to Europe, and not the other way around. Descendants of that Amerindian female currently living in Europe - and there are many of them - are readily identifiable by genetic markers inherited from her.

***Physics Guy could have rightly claimed that specific DNA markers, including those from now extinct subspecies (e.g., H. sapiens neanderthalensis) can persist in the human genome for well over 30,000 years instead of just 3,000 years. If you are of mainly European descent, it is more likely than not that you have Neanderthal DNA in your genome, even though Neanderthals went extinct as a subspecies some 40,000 years ago.
Last edited by DrW on Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by DoubtingThomas »

Are you planing on having it available as a hard copy?

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Simon Southerton
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Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by Simon Southerton »

DoubtingThomas wrote:Are you planing on having it available as a hard copy?


I haven't seriously considered it, but I've had about four people ask me. It would need to be in colour as there are about 20 full colour figures. I wouldn't rule it out, but right now it's not in my plans.
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama

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Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by Simon Southerton »

Physics Guy wrote:Blazes.

Ed Goble sees the value in comparing modern Native American DNA to ancient Canaanite DNA, because ancestry leaves persistent traces in DNA that can be read after 3000 years.

But he does not accept that one can substitute modern Jewish DNA for the ancient Canaanite, because ancestry does not leave persistent traces in DNA that can be read after 3000 years.

Did I miss something?


I could not have put it any better.
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama

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Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

DrW wrote:** And yes, we know that Vikings arrived in the Canadian Maritimes before the 15th century. However, the best documented genetic interchange from this encounter ended up with Amerindian DNA migrating to Europe by way of an Amerindian female pregnant with a Viking child who returned to Europe, and not the other way around. Descendants of that Amerindian female currently living in Europe - and there are many of them - are readily identifiable by genetic markers inherited from her.


THIS is super interesting.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/human-o ... and-020316

In 2010, it was reported that the first Native Americans arrived on the continent of Europe sometime around the 11 th century. The study, led by deCODE Genetics, a world-leading genome research lab in Iceland, discovered a unique gene that was present in only four distinct family lines. The DNA lineage, which was named C1e, is mitochondrial, meaning that the genes were introduced by and passed down through a female. Based on the evidence of the DNA, it has been suggested that a Native American, (voluntarily or involuntarily) accompanied the Vikings when they returned back to Iceland. The woman survived the voyage across the sea, and subsequently had children in her new home. As of today, there are 80 Icelanders who have the distinct gene passed down by this woman.


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... ajpa.21419

Although most mtDNA lineages observed in contemporary Icelanders can be traced to neighboring populations in the British Isles and Scandinavia, one may have a more distant origin. This lineage belongs to haplogroup C1, one of a handful that was involved in the settlement of the Americas around 14,000 years ago. Contrary to an initial assumption that this lineage was a recent arrival, preliminary genealogical analyses revealed that the C1 lineage was present in the Icelandic mtDNA pool at least 300 years ago. This raised the intriguing possibility that the Icelandic C1 lineage could be traced to Viking voyages to the Americas that commenced in the 10th century. In an attempt to shed further light on the entry date of the C1 lineage into the Icelandic mtDNA pool and its geographical origin, we used the deCODE Genetics genealogical database to identify additional matrilineal ancestors that carry the C1 lineage and then sequenced the complete mtDNA genome of 11 contemporary C1 carriers from four different matrilines. Our results indicate a latest possible arrival date in Iceland of just prior to 1700 and a likely arrival date centuries earlier. Most surprisingly, we demonstrate that the Icelandic C1 lineage does not belong to any of the four known Native American (C1b, C1c, and C1d) or Asian (C1a) subclades of haplogroup C1. Rather, it is presently the only known member of a new subclade, C1e. While a Native American origin seems most likely for C1e, an Asian or European origin cannot be ruled out. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2010. © 2010 Wiley‐Liss, Inc.


If I weren't so cheap I'd pay the money to read the article. This is really interesting stuff, and I just want to thank Dr. W for being such a great contributor to the board. I also want to thank Simon Southerton for bringing, consistently, such great content to the board. I never would've had the inclination to research and put together the information he has packaged for us here.

- Doc
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Re: The Sacred Curse

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I echo the above sentiments. I am in the middle of reading Dr. Southerton's newest book, The Sacred Curse, and recommend it highly. The apologists need to flee again, like they did from hemisphere geography to limited geography. Gadianton's prophecy of a fictional model will come true. It has to if the book of Mormon is to survive as a holy scripture. Information, like Dr. Southerton is kindly showing the world, is easily available and will continue to become more and more accessible to where I envision potential converts bringing up this information, in real time, at faster speeds than today, to the missionaries as the missionaries attempt to teach their nonsense. We will soon see almost instantaneous refutation of Mormon silliness as they attempt to gaslight reality.
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Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by aussieguy55 »

mfbukowski on the other board made these nice comments (insults?)

"Sigh
It's just the old historic vs the newer spiritual understanding of our beliefs.

It's no different than Book of Mormon geography vs horses in the Book of Mormon, metallurgy, translation vs revelation, the Book of Abraham, and every other misunderstanding. Evolution. Young earth. Big Bang and ex nihilo, geocentric universe and flat earth!

Can't we see it's all the same argument, different day?

What a waste of time!!

Every alleged anachronism disappears if Joseph was teaching spiritual principles and not science or history.
When will we get over this nonsense??

Grow up people!

Grow up critics, somewhere there's a brain in your head that should get you past Santa Claus and baby stories!!"

Simon must be getting to them
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Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by Simon Southerton »

Thanks Doc.

Although most mtDNA lineages observed in contemporary Icelanders can be traced to neighboring populations in the British Isles and Scandinavia, one may have a more distant origin. This lineage belongs to haplogroup C1, one of a handful that was involved in the settlement of the Americas around 14,000 years ago. Contrary to an initial assumption that this lineage was a recent arrival, preliminary genealogical analyses revealed that the C1 lineage was present in the Icelandic mtDNA pool at least 300 years ago. This raised the intriguing possibility that the Icelandic C1 lineage could be traced to Viking voyages to the Americas that commenced in the 10th century. In an attempt to shed further light on the entry date of the C1 lineage into the Icelandic mtDNA pool and its geographical origin, we used the deCODE Genetics genealogical database to identify additional matrilineal ancestors that carry the C1 lineage and then sequenced the complete mtDNA genome of 11 contemporary C1 carriers from four different matrilines. Our results indicate a latest possible arrival date in Iceland of just prior to 1700 and a likely arrival date centuries earlier. Most surprisingly, we demonstrate that the Icelandic C1 lineage does not belong to any of the four known Native American (C1b, C1c, and C1d) or Asian (C1a) subclades of haplogroup C1. Rather, it is presently the only known member of a new subclade, C1e. While a Native American origin seems most likely for C1e, an Asian or European origin cannot be ruled out. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2010. © 2010 Wiley‐Liss, Inc.


The discovery of the C lineage in Iceland is really interesting. Initially I was pretty convinced it came from the Americas. The simple way to resolve this question would be whole genome studies on several of the individuals carrying the C lineage. If it genuinely was a Native American mitochondrial lineage then we would see clear evidence in the genome. Even Ancestry.DNA would be able to detect it. If those studies have been done, they didn't find American Indian genomic DNA, otherwise it would have been widely publicised. Hopefully they haven't been done yet and we have another surprise in store.

The significance of being able to detect evidence of a single Native American woman migrating to Iceland, but not a single Lamanite in the New World, hadn't escaped my attention.
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama

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Re: The Sacred Curse

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aussieguy55 wrote:mfbukowski on the other board made these nice comments (insults?)

"Sigh
It's just the old historic vs the newer spiritual understanding of our beliefs.

It's no different than Book of Mormon geography vs horses in the Book of Mormon, metallurgy, translation vs revelation, the Book of Abraham, and every other misunderstanding. Evolution. Young earth. Big Bang and ex nihilo, geocentric universe and flat earth!

Can't we see it's all the same argument, different day?

What a waste of time!!

Every alleged anachronism disappears if Joseph was teaching spiritual principles and not science or history.
When will we get over this nonsense??

Grow up people!

Grow up critics, somewhere there's a brain in your head that should get you past Santa Claus and baby stories!!"

Simon must be getting to them

WOW - What?

This apparent admission by someone over there like mfbukowski is a shock to say the least. It looks as though one of the long time MADBoard stalwarts is advocating that the faithful throw in the towel on the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

For those of you who still attend, or maintain contact with active members, how common is this viewpoint nowadays?

Is mfbukowski and outlier with this PoV?

Is the LDS Church really ready to teach that their foundational scripture is a compilation of allegorical fantasies?

Are Simon and the rest of the critics finally getting through?

Is anyone else as surprised as I am?
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."

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Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by Arc »

Simon Southerton wrote:The significance of being able to detect evidence of a single Native American woman migrating to Iceland, but not a single Lamanite in the New World, hadn't escaped my attention.

For any who may have questioned whether Dr. Southerton is professional geneticist, his turn of phase above should remove all doubt.
At the end of one of the most profound scientific papers ever written, Watson and Crick added: "It has not escaped our attention that the specific pairing we have postulated immediately suggests a possible copying mechanism for the genetic material." James D. Watson and Francis H.C. Crick in Nature, April 25, 1953.
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Re: The Sacred Curse

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mfbukowski wrote:Every alleged anachronism disappears if Joseph was teaching spiritual principles and not science or history.
When will we get over this nonsense??

Exiled wrote:Onward to a non-historical book of Mormon, Ed Goble, onward.

Ed Goble and mfbukowski should have a sit-down.
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Re: The Sacred Curse

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mfbukowski wrote:Every alleged anachronism disappears if Joseph was teaching spiritual principles and not science or history.

Mormonism is a demanding faith and most of its demands are to fill callings in its hierarchy. Most of its ceremonies are either duties or promotions in rank that make one eligible for new duties. So although Mormonism does have distinctive spiritual principles besides authority, without the authority of its ecclessiastical hierarchy the practice of Mormonism as it has been would collapse, as far as I can discern. So as far as practice is concerned it seems to me that the chief spiritual principle of Mormonism is the authority of its prophets.

The authority of Mormon prophets rests on Joseph Smith's miraculous production of ancient historical documents, does it not? If every story in the Book of Mormon had begun, "Once upon a time ..." and wrapped up with a moral, or if Smith had gone straight to "as God is, man may become" without telling any Nephite-Lamanite stories, then who would ever have trekked to Utah with a handcart?

Expecting that Mormonism should be able to disavow the historicity of its scriptures and nonetheless thrive as a purveyor of purely spiritual revelations seems to me like expecting General Motors to admit that the internal combustion engine was a hoax, stop making cars, and thrive as a marketing agency.

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Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by aussieguy55 »

In Cognitus comment on MAD "Ad-hominem attacks are pointless, but questioning his knowledge of the contents of the Book of Mormon is extremely relevant to the topic because his arguments are against a specific traditional misunderstanding of the text of the Book of Mormon. But a careful reading of the text doesn't support the traditional view, and therefore his "knowledge of what the Book of Mormon really says" should be in question since his arguments depend on that traditional misunderstanding."
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Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by Simon Southerton »

Arc wrote:
At the end of one of the most profound scientific papers ever written, Watson and Crick added: "It has not escaped our attention that the specific pairing we have postulated immediately suggests a possible copying mechanism for the genetic material." James D. Watson and Francis H.C. Crick in Nature, April 25, 1953.


Wow, I didn't realise I was channelling the godfathers of DNA. I am not worthy to be mentioned in the same sentence brother.
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama

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Simon Southerton
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Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by Simon Southerton »

aussieguy55 wrote:In Cognitus comment on MAD "Ad-hominem attacks are pointless, but questioning his knowledge of the contents of the Book of Mormon is extremely relevant to the topic because his arguments are against a specific traditional misunderstanding of the text of the Book of Mormon. But a careful reading of the text doesn't support the traditional view, and therefore his "knowledge of what the Book of Mormon really says" should be in question since his arguments depend on that traditional misunderstanding."
"


I wonders how he's getting on with convincing the Brethren they misunderstand the Book of Mormon?
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama

I have a question
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Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by I have a question »

aussieguy55 wrote:mfbukowski on the other board made these nice comments (insults?)

"Sigh
It's just the old historic vs the newer spiritual understanding of our beliefs.

It's no different than Book of Mormon geography vs horses in the Book of Mormon, metallurgy, translation vs revelation, the Book of Abraham, and every other misunderstanding. Evolution. Young earth. Big Bang and ex nihilo, geocentric universe and flat earth!

Can't we see it's all the same argument, different day?

What a waste of time!!

Every alleged anachronism disappears if Joseph was teaching spiritual principles and not science or history.
When will we get over this nonsense??

Grow up people!

Grow up critics, somewhere there's a brain in your head that should get you past Santa Claus and baby stories!!"

Simon must be getting to them

He just called the Book Of Mormon fiction, and believing it to be a record of an actual people akin to believing in Santa Claus. One wonders about that boards reaction had a critic of the Church made those comments...One also wonders what the Apostles think of the admonition for them to grow up...
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')

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Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by Themis »

DrW wrote:Is mfbukowski and outlier with this PoV?


Yes he has some very different ideas about reality which you will have trouble finding a few in the church that think the same way.
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Themis
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Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by Themis »

aussieguy55 wrote:mfbukowski
Every alleged anachronism disappears if Joseph was teaching spiritual principles and not science or history.
When will we get over this nonsense??


I noticed he did not use the word just. If he would have I would have agreed that just teaching spiritual principles makes all the anachronisms disappear. Problem is Joseph was very much making some historical claims. His claims are so specific they are attached to his historical claims and having God's authority that no one else had. Joseph claimed to have real plates about a real people. He told many stories of those peoples over the years. mfbukowski would have been chastised by Joseph smith had he expressed those opinions to Joseph back then. The church is already losing a lot of BIC members. Drop the historical claims and see most of the rest go out the front door.
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Re: The Sacred Curse

Post by DrW »

Themis wrote:
DrW wrote:Is mfbukowski and outlier with this PoV?


Yes he has some very different ideas about reality which you will have trouble finding a few in the church that think the same way.

Thanks for responding to my question. Your perception on the issue is much the same as my wife's, who still attends for a sense of community and to give service, but no longer believes in the nonsense. We live in the mission field and still enjoy visiting Utah now and then.

It seems to us that attitudes toward the Church among active and inactive members we know in Utah reflects less and less each year the image of the LDS Church that the leadership tries to portray to the public. Many of our family members in Utah have stopped attending altogether and instead participate in "fellowship" groups to maintain a sense of religious community.

That said, it will be interesting to see what the response from other internet Mormons turns out to be to mfbukowski's expressed view of Book of Mormon historicity. I agree with you that the sentiments mfbukowski expresses would have earned a quick excommunication had they been revealed to Joseph Smith Jr.
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DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."

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