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 Post subject: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:30 pm 
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Hi Folks,

It's been sixteen years since I published Losing a Lost Tribe (Signature Books). Time for an update. I have just published a sequel, The Sacred Curse, and it can be purchased as a PDF from my new website (https://simonsoutherton.com/). My wonderful daughter Olly provided the artwork for the book.

Image

Here's some of the backstory for more recent escapees.

In 1998, while serving as a bishop in Brisbane, I discovered that scientists had failed to detect any sign of Middle Eastern DNA in Native Americans after testing the maternal ancestries of over 7,000 living and ancient individuals. After two weeks in the land of doublethink, my faith crashed. When I raised my questions with church leaders I was met with ecclesiastical bullying and shaming and directed to FARMS. Members in Brisbane were warned not to speak to Simon because Satan had deceived him. My family have refused to seriously look at what is clearly a serious problem. Lamanite DNA has vanished. Instead they have been drawn to lying apologists and snake oil salesmen.

Realising that the church was going to dig its heels in on DNA, I started writing Losing a Lost Tribe, Native Americans, DNA and the Mormon Church, which was published by Signature Books in Salt Lake City in 2004. In response to my book there were news stories on the DNA issue published in leading newspapers in the UK, Australia and right across the US.

The Mormon Church public relations machine swung into action. The Introduction to the Book of Mormon got a very quiet update a year later. The Lamanites were suddenly “among” rather than the “principal” ancestors of the American Indians. President Newsroom reassured the members the science is very complicated and they needed to listen to LDS experts who were not troubled by the science.

It turns out (miraculously?) that if you make Mormons afraid they will be excommunicated if they publicly question the historicity of the Book of Mormon, you get “scholars” (apologists) who will abuse science to defend it. Many are also employees of the church and have large circles of friends and work colleagues who are Latter-day Saints. This all combines to create powerful incentives for LDS apologists to gloss over uncomfortable facts and to see what they want to see in the science.

Since publishing my book, Mormon apologists have attacked me personally. They have questioned my intelligence and scientific credentials, my motives and my knowledge of what the Book of Mormon really says. They have exaggerated the limitations of DNA science, obscured the true facts it has revealed and even made false claims of positive evidence. They have also twisted the Book of Mormon narrative into a bizarre story that reduces the Lamanites to a sideshow anywhere you like in the New World. For Pete's sake! Ancestry.com knows Native Americans don't have Jewish DNA.

During the last ten years scientists have been combing our entire genome for its ancestral secrets. In addition to discovering Neanderthal genes lurking in our DNA, these studies have shed far greater light on the origins, timing and route of human migrations into the Americas and the Pacific. Despite massive studies aimed at discovering additional non-Asian ancestors, no trace of pre-Columbian Israelite DNA has been found in any of the thousands of indigenous people tested. DNA genealogy research continues to reveal the true history of indigenous peoples and, by implication, the 19th century origins of Mormonism’s racist keystone scripture. The Book of Mormon is 19th century fiction dressed up as scripture and it has resulted in untold harm to First Nations people. This has to stop.

According to Thomas Murphy, The Sacred Curse provides “the most accessible and succinct scientific refutation of Mormonism’s Lamanite mythology”. I believe it contains irrefutable scientific evidence against the historicity of the Book of Mormon. We now know for a fact Native Americans and Polynesians do not carry pre-Columbian Israelite genes in their DNA. The Lamanites never physically existed.

The Mormon Church needs to stop bullying and intimidating members who cannot believe the historicity of the Book of Mormon, because as the father of President Henry B. Eyring once said, "you don't have to believe anything that isn't true." - Henry Eyring.

Cheers
Simon

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Last edited by Simon Southerton on Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:44 pm 
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I look forward to reading this! Thank you for all your work!

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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:26 am 
Sunbeam
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Thanks Simon I just downloaded it.

Thank you for including this:

Quote:
To partially-quote a friend of mine, the Book of Mormon is a 19th century white supremacist's handbook dressed up as scripture and it has resulted in untold harm to First Nations people. This has to stop


It is a very true statement. It wasn’t until I was well into adulthood that I was able to reclaim my Native American heritage without it being tainted by the word Lamanite.


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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:26 am 
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Wow. Wonderful! Congrats, Simon. If I hadn’t read the original, would it make sense to read that first, or could one jump ahead to the sequel for the latest info?

Also, great to meet you briefly during the march in October!

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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:25 am 
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Grudunza wrote:
Wow. Wonderful! Congrats, Simon. If I hadn’t read the original, would it make sense to read that first, or could one jump ahead to the sequel for the latest info?

Also, great to meet you briefly during the march in October!


You're safe to jump ahead. Here's the chapter structure. https://simonsoutherton.com/about/

Chapter outline

1. The Book of Mormon and the Lamanites
2. Problems with Book of Mormon history
3. DNA genealogy
4. Origin of Indigenous Americans
5. Defending the Book of Mormon
6. Limited geography apologetics
7. Looting the Maya
8. The rise of ‘Heartland’ pseudoscience
9. Polynesians and the Book of Mormon
10. Official Church responses
11. Losing the Lamanite Myth
APPENDICES

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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:38 am 
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Dr LOD wrote:
Thanks Simon I just downloaded it.

Thank you for including this:

Quote:
To partially-quote a friend of mine, the Book of Mormon is a 19th century white supremacist's handbook dressed up as scripture and it has resulted in untold harm to First Nations people. This has to stop


It is a very true statement. It wasn’t until I was well into adulthood that I was able to reclaim my Native American heritage without it being tainted by the word Lamanite.


After reading my book, if you would like to write a review, I would love to post it on my website. I'm really keen for those most heavily impacted by the Lamanite myth to feature prominently among the reviews.

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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:15 am 
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Simon Southerton wrote:
After reading my book, if you would like to write a review, I would love to post it on my website. I'm really keen for those most heavily impacted by the Lamanite myth to feature prominently among the reviews.


Will do.


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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:20 am 
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Hello Simon,

Thanks for the update on the Lamanite DNA issue.
This needed to be done and done well, and it looks as if you did it.

Just downloaded a copy.
Great layout and formatting.
Kudos to Olly for the artwork.

Price is well below market for an e-book of this quality.
Hope you sell a ton tonne of 'em.

Favorite passage so far:
Simon Southerton in footnotes for The Sacred Curse wrote:
Current Church President Russell M. Nelson has received revelation that God is displeased with the nicknames “Mormon” and “LDS” and discourages their use.
I love it.

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DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."


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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:10 am 
God

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Thank you!! I can't wait.


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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:34 pm 
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DrW wrote:
Hello Simon,

Price is well below market for an e-book of this quality.
Hope you sell a ton tonne of ''em.


Well seeing as Amazon isn't pulling the strings I'll have to triple it! :)

Quote:
Favorite passage so far:
Simon Southerton in footnotes for The Sacred Curse wrote:
Current Church President Russell M. Nelson has received revelation that God is displeased with the nicknames “Mormon” and “LDS” and discourages their use.

I love it.

Yes, another case of fact being funnier than fiction....a common theme in Mormonism.

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LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama


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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:06 pm 
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Simon Southerton wrote:
Yes, another case of fact being funnier than fiction....a common theme in Mormonism.

Precisely!

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DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."


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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:58 pm 
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Simon,

I received an email from Ed Goble requesting additional information on a the DNA subject:

Ed Goble wrote:
Since Archaeology seems to have shown that there seems to be no difference between an "Israelite" and a "Canaanite" in ancient times, therefore, it is my understanding that there ought to be no difference genetically. Therefore, known ancient Canaanite DNA ought to be a good sampling for what made up "Israelite" DNA from ancient times.

In the DNA tests that are done comparing Native American DNA to "Jewish" DNA, what is used as the so-called "Jewish" sample? Ancient Canaanite DNA, or modern Jewish DNA. I do not see the two as equivalent, and I think that only ancient Canaanite DNA would be the one to compare it to to determine if Native Americans truly have ancient Canaanite ancestry, instead of "Jewish" DNA that modern Jews have.

And secondly, to what degree does modern "Jewish" DNA show continuity with ancient Canaanite DNA.

Can Mr. Southerton shed light on this?

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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:08 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Simon,

I received an email from Ed Goble requesting additional information on a the DNA subject: [SNIP]

If Ed Goble is serious, please suggest to him that he invest $7.50 in Dr. Southerton's book and learn not only the answer to his question, but gain enough background and contextual information on human population genetics that he need never ask this kind of naïve question again.

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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:53 pm 
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Arc wrote:
If Ed Goble is serious, please suggest to him that he invest $7.50 in Dr. Southerton's book and learn not only the answer to his question, but gain enough background and contextual information on human population genetics that he need never ask this kind of naïve question again.


That sounds like sound advice but let's see if Simon is willing to respond. I'm sure Ed is following the thread and awaiting. He won't be able to respond because he stopped participating on this board in a formal sense.

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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:05 pm 
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Ed Goble wrote:
Since Archaeology seems to have shown that there seems to be no difference between an "Israelite" and a "Canaanite" in ancient times, therefore, it is my understanding that there ought to be no difference genetically. Therefore, known ancient Canaanite DNA ought to be a good sampling for what made up "Israelite" DNA from ancient times.

In the DNA tests that are done comparing Native American DNA to "Jewish" DNA, what is used as the so-called "Jewish" sample? Ancient Canaanite DNA, or modern Jewish DNA. I do not see the two as equivalent, and I think that only ancient Canaanite DNA would be the one to compare it to to determine if Native Americans truly have ancient Canaanite ancestry, instead of "Jewish" DNA that modern Jews have.

And secondly, to what degree does modern "Jewish" DNA show continuity with ancient Canaanite DNA.

Can Mr. Southerton shed light on this?


Apologies for the delay. Usual time zone delay and I am visiting relatives in Sydney.

The reference Jewish population included several Sephardic populations scattered throughout the Middle East and North Africa. Scientists screened these, and over 90 other global populations, with about 500,000 genomic DNA markers to identify markers that are specific to the Sephardic populations and not found in neighbouring populations. This has also been done with Ashkenazi, revealing that the two Jewish groups are closely related. Both groups carry thousands of markers that they have collectively inherited from their ancestors and they are used to detect Jewish ancestry.

We don’t really need ancient Jewish DNA to detect Jewish DNA in Native Americans, for precisely the same reason scientists have not needed ancient Asian DNA to conclude Native Americans are of Asian origin. Markers specific to different ethnic groups and populations are carried by their living descendants. That's why its called DNA genealogy.

The bigger problem for the Book of Mormon is that scientists can explain where one hundred point zero, zero...percent of the genomes of Native Americans came from. They can even tell where all the post Columbus admixture came from and when it arrived. Yes, that's right, whole genome research can tell you when foreign DNA entered a Native American's pedigree. In screens of 6,500 Latin Americans from Mesoamerica and South America they detected small traces of Jewish DNA all over the place but it arrived at the same time as the Spanish DNA.

This is all discussed in more detail and context in my book. It's not very expensive and its not very long. I'd be happy to answer any more questions Ed has after he has read my book.

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"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama


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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:23 pm 
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Simon Southerton wrote:
This is all discussed in more detail and context in my book. It's not very expensive and its not very long. I'd be happy to answer any more questions Ed has after he has read my book.


You seem like a terrific guy, Simon. Thanks for responding to Ed's request.

Ed, get the book and study it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:08 pm 
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Simon,

Just a quick question, in my reddit review of your book a poster asked if you addressed the “bottle neck”and “founder effect” apologetic arguments which plays such a large diversionary role in the churches DNA Essay. Can you elaborate on how population genetics impacts these arguments?

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:46 am 
Son of Perdition
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Simon Southerton wrote:
This is all discussed in more detail and context in my book. It's not very expensive and its not very long. I'd be happy to answer any more questions Ed has after he has read my book.


As a matter of interest, Ed emailed me with a response to your response. I trust he will obtain your book and learn more.

Ed Goble wrote:
That's what I thought. They used the wrong samples when archaeology is clear that they were ancient Canaanites, not modern Jews. I challenge you to actually admit that you have no evidence for continuity of ancient Canaanite DNA in the modern Askenazi and Sephardic populations. You people don't need to talk down to me like I'm an idiot when I see to the obvious and to call you out on the obvious. Nothing else but samplings of ancient Canaanite DNA will do, period. No other sample is acceptable. Otherwise the foundations of your claims are categorically flawed. Archaeology is absolutely clear on what population the native Americans must be compared to.

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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:36 pm 
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Blazes.

Ed Goble sees the value in comparing modern Native American DNA to ancient Canaanite DNA, because ancestry leaves persistent traces in DNA that can be read after 3000 years.

But he does not accept that one can substitute modern Jewish DNA for the ancient Canaanite, because ancestry does not leave persistent traces in DNA that can be read after 3000 years.

Did I miss something?


Last edited by Physics Guy on Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:28 pm 
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Ed Goble wrote:
That's what I thought. They used the wrong samples when archaeology is clear that they were ancient Canaanites, not modern Jews. I challenge you to actually admit that you have no evidence for continuity of ancient Canaanite DNA in the modern Askenazi and Sephardic populations. You people don't need to talk down to me like I'm an idiot when I see to the obvious and to call you out on the obvious. Nothing else but samplings of ancient Canaanite DNA will do, period. No other sample is acceptable. Otherwise the foundations of your claims are categorically flawed. Archaeology is absolutely clear on what population the native Americans must be compared to.


Why don’t we flip that thought. After all he and the church have made these amazing claims. The real issue is God through revelation to Joseph Smith multiple times in the D&C as well as the 1830 pseudo-canonized revelation Lamanite polygamy revelation that the church dug out to justify Joseph Smith’s sex life in their recliner essay. In these the “Lord” was pretty specific on who and where these people were.

What has the DNA shown on these people? Nothing!

They do still exist, as well as older samples. I would accept any statically significant proof of pre-coloumbus DNA from any bible lands in these peoples.


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 Post subject: Re: The Sacred Curse
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:01 pm 
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Onward to a non-historical book of Mormon, Ed Goble, onward.

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