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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:37 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Rosebud wrote:
Oh...... and lawsuits of course. And what media is and isn’t reporting about them.

What lawsuits are you talking about?

- Doc

Let me see if I can explain from my perspective. (I’m in Boston and am an early to bed early to rise person these days. Thus my early morning posts.)

This board cares about Mopologusts and 2012. I care about people figuring out what really happened. And while I don’t care much about the Maxwell Institute or the Mopologusts, there’s some crossover for me between these subjects because they intersected in my own life.

I am speaking generally, not specifically. I am referring to any lawsuits pertinent to a subject that has ties to critical topics in Mormonism. I am sharing strategies I think people who require evidence in order to be convinced of the truth of an important subject could use in order to discover that truth.

I’ve spent a lot of time skimming or listening to speculative discussions regarding 2012 and other subjects I have a lot of information about. In general, the people discussing are bringing up good points based on the information they have. But the information they have is less than the information I have. When I have more information about the particular topic than they do, I can see where their missing information is leading their thinking astray.

In general, I don’t see the point of trying to correct people because it takes real work and effort to see where one’s thinking is wrong. Neither side (TBM nor ex-Kormon) is particularly skilled at critically evaluating their own bias and few people seem to really want to listen and learn. Most appear to be more interested in proving their own side is correct or in making themselves look smart and powerful.

So why contribute to the discussion? I get criticized over and over agin on this board for not doing so, but there’s not much of a point is contributing to a discussion that’s more about people proving themselves than proving a particular topic. So, mostly I just record stuff and use my posts to try to get John to back down on rhetoric that I think is harming Mormonism and ex-Mormonism.

But, if anyone really ever cares to explore a subject with an open mind, the time I’ve spent observing discussions by people lacking information I have has helped me construct something they could use to really get the answers they’re looking for: a consolidated chronological document that makes it simple to evaluate how events really went down.

And since I believe the subjects I have information about are important, I’d ultimately like somebody to take these things seriously enough to commit to getting to the bottom of them.

Any lawsuits pertinent to a subject must be part of that document. That’s all.

And since I’m generally not on the same subject as the other posters in any thread because I’m making recordings and observing conversations, I’m.not, in this case, referring to any lawsuits that specifically have to do with the Maxwell Institute. I’m speaking generally about critical subjects in Mormonism.

And, again, for me personally, there’s some overlap in these subjects because the Maxwell Institute issue was thrust into my life in 2012 when the work I was doing became a threat to some of the brethren.

I recognize that I’m coming from a place that’s unique enough that it’s difficult to see where I’m coming from without explanation. I hope this helps a little.

I’m not planning on putting in the time to sift through all the documents. But I have great hopes that a future historian will. So, I’m writing to that person as well as to the current readers of this post.

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Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document


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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:16 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Rosebud wrote:
Oh...... and lawsuits of course. And what media is and isn’t reporting about them.

What lawsuits are you talking about?

- Doc

Rosebud wrote:
Let me see if I can explain from my perspective. (I’m in Boston and am an early to bed early to rise person these days. Thus my early morning posts.)

This board cares about Mopologusts and 2012. I care about people figuring out what really happened. And while I don’t care much about the Maxwell Institute or the Mopologusts, there’s some crossover for me between these subjects because they intersected in my own life.

I am speaking generally, not specifically. I am referring to any lawsuits pertinent to a subject that has ties to critical topics in Mormonism. I am sharing strategies I think people who require evidence in order to be convinced of the truth of an important subject could use in order to discover that truth.

I’ve spent a lot of time skimming or listening to speculative discussions regarding 2012 and other subjects I have a lot of information about. In general, the people discussing are bringing up good points based on the information they have. But the information they have is less than the information I have. When I have more information about the particular topic than they do, I can see where their missing information is leading their thinking astray.

In general, I don’t see the point of trying to correct people because it takes real work and effort to see where one’s thinking is wrong. Neither side (TBM nor ex-Kormon) is particularly skilled at critically evaluating their own bias and few people seem to really want to listen and learn. Most appear to be more interested in proving their own side is correct or in making themselves look smart and powerful.

So why contribute to the discussion? I get criticized over and over agin on this board for not doing so, but there’s not much of a point is contributing to a discussion that’s more about people proving themselves than proving a particular topic. So, mostly I just record stuff and use my posts to try to get John to back down on rhetoric that I think is harming Mormonism and ex-Mormonism.

But, if anyone really ever cares to explore a subject with an open mind, the time I’ve spent observing discussions by people lacking information I have has helped me construct something they could use to really get the answers they’re looking for: a consolidated chronological document that makes it simple to evaluate how events really went down.

And since I believe the subjects I have information about are important, I’d ultimately like somebody to take these things seriously enough to commit to getting to the bottom of them.

Any lawsuits pertinent to a subject must be part of that document. That’s all.

And since I’m generally not on the same subject as the other posters in any thread because I’m making recordings and observing conversations, I’m.not, in this case, referring to any lawsuits that specifically have to do with the Maxwell Institute. I’m speaking generally about critical subjects in Mormonism.

And, again, for me personally, there’s some overlap in these subjects because the Maxwell Institute issue was thrust into my life in 2012 when the work I was doing became a threat to some of the brethren.

I recognize that I’m coming from a place that’s unique enough that it’s difficult to see where I’m coming from without explanation. I hope this helps a little.

I’m not planning on putting in the time to sift through all the documents. But I have great hopes that a future historian will. So, I’m writing to that person as well as to the current readers of this post.

Damn. We joke about whether Midgley is all there when he posts, but you make his Utah-ornery posts look positively rock solid and totally normal.

Seriously, you are delusional. There are a lot of well-educated, well experienced and well-spoken people participating in this thread, but then you write a post like the above? You need to get those meds checked, IMO.

Quote:
And since I’m generally not on the same subject as the other posters in any thread...

That’s for damn sure. :rolleyes:


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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:47 am 
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I am having a hard time connecting the dots between Rosebud's posts and the actual conversation going on. I am sure it is just me.


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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:52 am 
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I just wanna know what lawsuits she’s talking about.

-Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:14 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Damn. We joke about whether Midgley is all there when he posts, but you make his Utah-ornery posts look positively rock solid and totally normal.

Seriously, you are delusional. There are a lot of well-educated, well experienced and well-spoken people participating in this thread, but then you write a post like the above? You need to get those meds checked, IMO.

We'll see......

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Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document


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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:16 pm 
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(And i've never needed nor been prescribed a psychotropic drug in my life, since you're making it your business.)

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Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document


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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:47 pm 
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Rosebud wrote:
And since I’m generally not on the same subject as the other posters in any thread because I’m making recordings and observing conversations, ...

Sort of like Santa in compiling a dossier of everyone who is naughty and nice to sue for various toys and lumps of coal.

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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:52 pm 
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Would you be willing to share the chronology you’ve constructed?

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― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:59 pm 
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candygal wrote:
I am having a hard time connecting the dots between Rosebud's posts and the actual conversation going on. I am sure it is just me.

My posts aren't part of the conversation. I'm not going to comment on the Maxwell Institute and 2012 any more than I already have.

The people on this board love speculating about this pet topic. I'm not interested in their speculations and couldn't care less about the Maxwell Institute aside from the way the disruptions of 2012 affected Mormonism, ex-Mormonism me, my work and my objectives.

I don't give a dang which apostle or general authority who thinks himself very important did what to whom, etc. etc. etc. To me that's a snoozer of a topic. It's obvious that Mormonism is false and that a bunch of people raised in a difficult culture are trying to figure out how to navigate life and belief. It's obvious that Mormons and ex-Mormons have serious authority and charismatic figure issues. I suppose I could write a paper on those topics if I were really interested, but if I did, I wouldn't share it here. (And I personally have other things I'd prefer to write about.)

What I want is for Mormons and ex-Mormon to stop bickering about nonsense and take care of real problems. I'm pissed about things that matter and am not going to debate which powerful Mormon male's pride got hurt and why. Who cares? Let the historians take care of it once they have more documents in their hands. When somebody does an honest and thorough job of addressing this topic, I'll be interested. Until then, I"m out.

And this board is the wrong place for me to really address my pet topics. I'll address them in more appropriate venues.

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Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document


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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:16 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
Would you be willing to share the chronology you’ve constructed?

My own chronology would only contain the information I personally have and I haven't taken the time to create one that's sufficient. A good chronology has to be compiled by someone who gathers documents from several sources, does interviews (preferably recorded and preferably done by someone trained in interview techniques), considers all perspectives, etc. It's a bigger job than I am going to take on, because.... well... this isn't my focus. I have no desire to become a historian of 2012 in Mormonism. And that wouldn't be appropriate. It would be more appropriate for me to write a memoir than a history piece.

I am not going to share any more documents. If/when a real historian decides to take this on, they can call me and we'll discuss. I don't think it's time to do the project yet, for what it's worth. But who knows. My Maxwell Institute documents are limited to email conversations and emails that were forwarded to me in 2012. Oh... and it came up in legal negotiations between me and John in the summer of 2014 so there are probably some documents that mention the hit piece in that legal file.

I am not going to start combing through documents to find things and I think they'd mostly be boring. They'd confirm dates, possibly give historians new leads to chase, etc. I don't know. Lots happened that didn't go through email.

To me the story is much bigger than the hit piece and the Maxwell Institute because that was only one piece of what happened in 2012. The hit piece plays a role from my perspective, but it is not central to the story.

Anyway... I'm done.

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Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document


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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:57 pm 
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Rosebud wrote:
I am sharing strategies I think people who require evidence in order to be convinced of the truth of an important subject could use in order to discover that truth.

Wait. What strategies have you shared for sleuthers? Like. What’s a good couple of strategies you’ve shared?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:16 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Rosebud wrote:
I am sharing strategies I think people who require evidence in order to be convinced of the truth of an important subject could use in order to discover that truth.

Wait. What strategies have you shared for sleuthers? Like. What’s a good couple of strategies you’ve shared?

- Doc

Strategy 1:

1. Get a history degree.

2. Become a historian.

3. Convince Rosebud that you are committed to researching and compiling a historical account of 2012.

4. Interview Rosebud and review her documents. Unless she’s busy. Or not interested.

Strategy 2:

1. Read and monitor court filings in hundreds of jurisdictions for cases that have to do with Mormon stuff.

2. Make your own damn chronology, even though you won’t have the key information that Rosebud has.

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― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:44 pm 
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Strategy 3 for Res:

Realize that you’re an anonymous poster on a message board, that you have no inherent right to information, and that Rosebud has a different set of objectives than you. Remember that Rosebud is stubborn and is going to do things her own way no matter what you do or say. Remember that Rosebud has already told you to wait for the future to happen and that she is going to show you what is important to her, if you’re interested, rather than tell you.

Remember that not everyone is a historian and not everyone needs to be a historian for historians to do their work and for people to get answers. Remember that when serious historians get involved and examine real evidence, people won’t have to rely on the loud mouths (Lou, Dan and John) to tell the story. Remember that not everybody is a loud mouth who wants to shove their own version of events down other people’s throats. Remember that some people would like a professional and thorough job done and would like all sides to be heard, not just their own.

Remember that there are things that are far more important than the dissolution of an institute that bears an “important” man’s name. I tend to think that the most important people in the world are children, not men who have other men fawning over them. I have my own, more important, things to address and tend to.

Patience.

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Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document


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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:58 pm 
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Rosebud wrote:
Strategy 3 for Res:

Realize that you’re an anonymous poster on a message board, that you have no inherent right to information, and that Rosebud has a different set of objectives than you. Remember that Rosebud is stubborn and is going to do things her own way no matter what you do or say. Remember that Rosebud has already told you to wait for the future to happen and that she is going to show you what is important to her, if you’re interested, rather than tell you.

Remember that not everyone is a historian and not everyone needs to be a historian for historians to do their work and for people to get answers. Remember that when serious historians get involved and examine real evidence, people won’t have to rely on the loud mouths (Lou, Dan and John) to tell the story. Remember that not everybody is a loud mouth who wants to shove their own version of events down other people’s throats. Remember that some people would like a professional and thorough job done and would like all sides to be heard, not just their own.

Remember that there are things that are far more important than the dissolution of an institute that bears an “important” man’s name. I tend to think that the most important people in the world are children, not men who have other men fawning over them. I have my own, more important, things to address and tend to.

Patience.

:rolleyes: Narcissist, thy name is Rosebud.


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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:59 pm 
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Good-bye, Rosebud. I hope you find whatever it is that will bring you peace.

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― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:56 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
Good-bye, Rosebud. I hope you find whatever it is that will bring you peace.


Thank you. I believe I will. It is much better to be powerful and taking action than to be powerless and at the whims of those who want to hurt you.

And to best to you, Res. Although anonymously demanding what you want from someone you don't know who has never personally offended you and who has no obligations towards you is a dick thing to do. And it's a dick thing to be upset with someone for not giving you what you want because they have their own reasons.

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Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document


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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:10 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Rosebud wrote:
Strategy 3 for Res:

Realize that you’re an anonymous poster on a message board, that you have no inherent right to information, and that Rosebud has a different set of objectives than you. Remember that Rosebud is stubborn and is going to do things her own way no matter what you do or say. Remember that Rosebud has already told you to wait for the future to happen and that she is going to show you what is important to her, if you’re interested, rather than tell you.

Remember that not everyone is a historian and not everyone needs to be a historian for historians to do their work and for people to get answers. Remember that when serious historians get involved and examine real evidence, people won’t have to rely on the loud mouths (Lou, Dan and John) to tell the story. Remember that not everybody is a loud mouth who wants to shove their own version of events down other people’s throats. Remember that some people would like a professional and thorough job done and would like all sides to be heard, not just their own.

Remember that there are things that are far more important than the dissolution of an institute that bears an “important” man’s name. I tend to think that the most important people in the world are children, not men who have other men fawning over them. I have my own, more important, things to address and tend to.

Patience.

:rolleyes: Narcissist, thy name is Rosebud.


I came back this afternoon to tell you how lame it is to bring in mental illness when you're insulting people. Calling people delusional, labeling them as narcissists and telling them to up their meds crosses a line of decorum that is harmful to all people who are mentally ill. And to their families.

Getting back to the bigger picture and why I'm so mad about what the church is and isn't doing to solve its problems: while I've never been prescribed nor needed psychotropic drugs, I have a brother who suffers from very severe psychosis. I have spent countless hours comforting him as he experiences delusions, paranoia and associated suicidality. I do that to try to save his life. I am most likely going to fail. I have to think about that and think about how the child I knew is already gone. Someone who has never seen what real psychosis looks like ought to keep her mouth shut. Your insults are cheap.

It's because I've seen so much suffering that I do what I do. Does that make me a "narcissist" because I speak powerfully and I know where I'm going and why, or does that mean I have something authentic to share? You decide, but know that every time you insult me, you expose yourself... not me. Convince yourself that your insults won't make it into a history book if you'd like, but I was there in 2012. A lot that is significant occurred.

And a lot is still to occur.....

_________________
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document


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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:14 pm 
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Rosebud wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
Good-bye, Rosebud. I hope you find whatever it is that will bring you peace.

Thank you. I believe I will. It is much better to be powerful and taking action than to be powerless and at the whims of those who want to hurt you.

And to best to you, Res. Although anonymously demanding what you want from someone you don't know who has never personally offended you and who has no obligations towards you is a dick thing to do. And it's a dick thing to be upset with someone for not giving you what you want because they have their own reasons.

In res ipsa's defense I didn't get that interpretation at all from his messages. (Not that the post needed defending, it was pretty obvious.)


Last edited by Lemmie on Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:31 pm 
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Quote:
rosebud:

....Does that make me a "narcissist" because I speak powerfully and I know where I'm going and why, or does that mean I have something authentic to share?

:rolleyes: that's not why I think you are narcissistic, but it certainly adds to the evidence. You don't come across as speaking "powerfully." Delusionally, yes.

Quote:
rosebud:

You decide, but know that every time you insult me, you expose yourself... not me. Convince yourself that your insults won't make it into a history book if you'd like, but I was there in 2012. A lot that is significant occurred.


:lol: oh my, no. You're the narcissist, not me. I have no delusions that anything I say to you will be in a history book.

And seriously, with respect to the issues of 2012 that involve the Maxwell institute, it's about as delusional as a narcissist can get to believe that you "were there" for the history books to record. If you "were there," someone would have mentioned it before now.


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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:33 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
In res ipsa's defense I didn't get that interpretation at all from his messages.

Allow people to speak for themselves.

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Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document


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 Post subject: Re: Morgan Davis and the "Plot" to Destroy FARMS
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:35 pm 
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Rosebud wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
In res ipsa's defense I didn't get that interpretation at all from his messages.

Allow people to speak for themselves.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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