It is currently Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:01 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:38 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:38 pm
Posts: 1114
With members paying 10% the church has been able to run itself and also sock away $100B. So it seems as if the church could cut tithes to 5% and still bring in at least half of that $6B+ per year. That must leave them needing no more than $3B more from investment income. On a $100B endowment that's only 3% p.a. yield, which doesn't take a very good year. Maybe the church's fund could offer mortgages for that amount of interest, for example.

If the church is worried about catastrophic situations then it's not clear that hoarding money in any form is going to help with those, anyway. A famous financial advisor once urged his clients, "Lay not up for yourselves treasures on Earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt." Perhaps the LDS church could consider taking advice from that guy. He's fairly popular among their members.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:41 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:38 am
Posts: 1507
lemuel wrote:
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/18/the-sp-500-has-already-met-its-average-return-for-a-full-year.html

Says the S&P 500 has averaged a 9.8% return over the last 90 years. So with $100B they should be fine without our tithes.

Also show your wife Rock Waterman's post on tithing if she hasn't seen it yet. tl;dr: We should be paying on surplus, not gross or net income . http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html

Sure, makes sense, but I think these old guys want a pile of money that would guarantee them solvency through a major stock market crash type of scenario. In other words, I think they are looking back more than 90 years for scenarios they want to survive. :wink:

Also, I think they know that having a huge pile of money will get them a seat at tables that they otherwise wouldn't be invited to. The huger the better for that purpose.

The wife and I have had discussions about the evolving understanding of tithing in the past and I think she understands how things evolved. Right now, though, she's okay with paying zero to the church which is a step past the philosophy of paying on surplus. :cool:

_________________
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My Blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:45 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:38 am
Posts: 1507
Physics Guy wrote:
With members paying 10% the church has been able to run itself and also sock away $100B. So it seems as if the church could cut tithes to 5% and still bring in at least half of that $6B+ per year. That must leave them needing no more than $3B more from investment income. On a $100B endowment that's only 3% p.a. yield, which doesn't take a very good year. Maybe the church's fund could offer mortgages for that amount of interest, for example.

If the church is worried about catastrophic situations then it's not clear that hoarding money in any form is going to help with those, anyway. A famous financial advisor once urged his clients, "Lay not up for yourselves treasures on Earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt." Perhaps the LDS church could consider taking advice from that guy. He's fairly popular among their members.

:lol: They could do that, except this church isn't in the business of making life easier for its members.

I agree with your second paragraph but I also think it is very likely that these old men will try to plan for the end of the world with a pile of money anyway...

_________________
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My Blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:06 pm 
Deacon

Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:12 pm
Posts: 236
Physics Guy wrote:
Maybe the church's fund could offer mortgages for that amount of interest, for example.


I'm eager to buy AAA rated credit-default swaps on tithing-backed securities.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:10 pm 
God

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:44 pm
Posts: 13030
Imagine the money the Church would have accumulated if it wasn't constantly blowing hundreds of millions of dollars on temples and reinvested all that money instead. Talk about a complete waste of money.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:36 pm 
Seedy Academician
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:00 pm
Posts: 20894
Location: The Brutus Memorial Rectory at Cassius University
Imagine what good they could do with that money for the poor, sick, and afflicted! You would almost think that someone might inspire them to do things like that.

I wonder who that might be . . . .

_________________
“God came to me in a dream last night and showed me the future. He took me to heaven and I saw Donald Trump seated at the right hand of our Lord.” ~ Pat Robertson
“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:00 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:49 am
Posts: 8774
Location: Somewhere between bemused and curious.
Kevin Graham wrote:
Imagine the money the Church would have accumulated if it wasn't constantly blowing hundreds of millions of dollars on temples and reinvested all that money instead. Talk about a complete waste of money.


I agree that temple work is a complete waste of money as far as actually doing any necessary good for dead people. But in the end, temples are the stick leadership uses to threaten members with so they pay their tithing. I absolutely believe the church knows how much tithing revenues increase when they build temples in areas where the members did not have easy access to temples and that figure exceeds the cost of building and maintaining the new temple.

If temple recommends did not depend on being a full tithe payer I do not believe most members would even pay tithing.

Temples = LDS sacred cash cows.

_________________
“The dark skin was placed upon the Lamanites so that they could be distinguished from Nephites and to keep the two peoples from mixing. The dark skin was the sign of the curse. The curse was the withdrawal of the Spirit of the Lord. Dark skin is no longer to be considered a sign of the curse”
LDS Church "Come Follow Me" manual in 2020, print version.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:00 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 12472
Location: Multiverse
Kishkumen wrote:
Imagine what good they could do with that money for the poor, sick, and afflicted! You would almost think that someone might inspire them to do things like that.

I wonder who that might be . . . .


Bernie Sanders! :lol:

_________________
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:21 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:04 am
Posts: 5966
Location: Cassius University Hall of Mirrors - Its Symbolic of Something Significant I Just Know it!
Kishkumen wrote:
Imagine what good they could do with that money for the poor, sick, and afflicted! You would almost think that someone might inspire them to do things like that.

I wonder who that might be . . . .


Well they do support Trump so perhaps they can follow his wonderful Christian example...... :biggrin: I mean who doesn't recognize that his tweets are new scripture for the world?

_________________
Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:00 pm 
Hermit
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:12 pm
Posts: 9382
Location: Cave
Without a shred of sympathy, the Proprietor of a certain blog out there on the Internet has put up a post defending the idea that paying tithing gets you out of poverty: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... qus_thread

Easy for him to do, just saddle any random poor person with this lie because heck, it doesn't affect him, and most importantly, he thinks it will annoy his critics. It's worth potentially screwing someones life over just to bother people he doesn't like online. He relays one of the many Mormon urban legends that somebody paid their tithing and they couldn't make sense of their accounting records and were coming out ahead when they shouldn't have.

Anyway, while ole RTM Nelson may have said this, it isn't really church doctrine to preach it otherwise. Unless something has changed, when I was on a mission, it was forbidden to tell investigators that they would be blessed financially for paying tithing.

It's really unnecessary to lie about all this stuff, as the apologists are doing, and even unnecessary for RTM himself, since he already came up with the idea that one must have the faith not to be healed. Why would it be any different for tithing? why shouldn't you have the faith not to do better financially if you pay your tithing?

_________________
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:14 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am
Posts: 20100
I do find it psychologically fascinating that Mr. Peterson is up to 21 editions of his, I don't know what to call it really, tithing apologia on his blog?

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... qus_thread

He curiously links to this article by someone named LaVarr Webb:

https://utahpolicy.com/index.php/featur ... 4IygwmFXwk

Who mentions, presumably, this opinion piece as being "irresponsible falsehoods are spread around":

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/12 ... s-new-era/

tl;dr - The Church doesn't like whistleblowers, but it's necessary because the Church can't be trusted to do the right thing until they're embarrassed publicly.

So, back to Mr. Webb's piece where he writes regarding spending money on someone who needed a medical procedure:

Quote:
... uh oh, a church official is calling about the 8,000 bucks I spent on one person. And I was right, although the conversation was quite different than I expected.

The church representative identified himself as someone from the welfare services department. He said the expenditure, as it was a large amount, had been flagged. Then he thanked me for helping the person in need. I briefly described the situation, and he completely surprised me by saying something like, “I want you to know that if additional medical work is needed, and if the cost exceeds what local leaders can authorize, please call me and I’ll help you get what is needed.”


So, back to Mr. Peterson's piece where he writes:

Quote:
I served for several years as the bishop of a ward that met near the south Orem campus of Utah Valley University. It was a young single adult ward...

Most people in the ward were as healthy as a group of under-35s might be expected to be. But the ward was quite poor, and there were a surprisingly high number of mental health issues. Surprisingly high to me, anyway.

On my very first day, before I even knew how to do such things, I was approached by a ward member who needed substantial monetary help. I raced around the building, finally finding a fellow bishop who could walk me through the steps.

And it never stopped thereafter...

I actually worried about the amounts of financial assistance that I was handing out. I knew that they far exceeded the figures brought in by my own ward’s fast offerings and other donations...

I continue to be grateful that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the wherewithal to help. That hasn’t happened without careful and deliberate planning.


tl;dr - The Church is spending A LOT of money they don't report as humanitarian aid.

So, it seems to me that the new angle is the Church is spending a lot of money on people, much more than we'll ever know, and we have two testimonies stating that's that. I have a feeling that the subtext to those two testimonies is that if the Church were to open up the floodgates, so to speak, they'd be broke shortly thereafter.

- Doc

_________________
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:47 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 3065
Dr. Peterson's series is just a bunch of filler and misdirection from the real issues of should EPA be taxed and why the church is hoarding when it is supposed to be doing those things claimed to have been done in part 21. At least we aren't talking about modest houses from the past or what cars they drove 30 years ago. Nevertheless, I thought the stories about helping students was what a church should be doing and $100 Billion would go a long way to cure the mental health issues the church probably caused these poor youth in the first place. I know I would have suffered had I gone to BYU instead of the U of U. So why isn't the church using the money it saved on helping humanity instead of on building the holy hedge fund?

_________________
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:07 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am
Posts: 20100
It’s been interesting to see him publicly fumble around with the issue. He’s had some serious gaffes, such as those you pointed out, and if he were smart he’d stick to this new tactic of the BILLIONS the Church is spending that we don’t know about, but that former and current faithful types can totes attest are 100% for shur being spent because you can 100% believe them because they’d 100% never lie to us about something like that because they’re 100% credible professors or authors or businessmen or whatever.

21 blog posts. Smh.

- Doc

_________________
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:15 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 3065
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
It’s been interesting to see him publicly fumble around with the issue. He’s had some serious gaffes, such as those you pointed out, and if he were smart he’d stick to this new tactic of the BILLIONS the Church is spending that we don’t know about, but that former and current faithful types can totes attest are 100% for shur being spent because you can 100% believe them because they’d 100% never lie to us about something like that because they’re 100% credible professors or authors or businessmen or whatever.

21 blog posts. Smh.

- Doc


Yeah, he should definitely dwell on hyping these stories without revealing dollar figures involved. When I was last going to church, the ward counsel was discussing what to do with the $100.00 fund the young women had for the whole year. So, I suspect the money these "generous" bishops were passing out was very conservative and their surprise was that the SP wasn't forcing them to be even more conservative.

Perhaps some of the former leaders who comment here could offer their anecdotes of the money involved helping members? The experiences of people I know who requested assistance from the church was what one would expect if one requested assistance from the most conservative republicans. I did some legal work for a low income member once and after I agreed to reduce my fee, the bishop agreed to pay. Now, what the church does should be lauded, but we ought to know how that compares to the $100 Billion fund it is hoarding, tax free.

_________________
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:57 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:38 am
Posts: 1507
I was never a bishop, but as Elder's Quorum President my experience with church welfare was that my bishop was extremely miserly in dispensing fast offering funds. I spent countless hours trying to help people fix cars before he would just pay to have a real mechanic look them over. I really resent how much time I was asked to devote to various ward members' car trouble (I'm not a mechanic, so I'm not very effective as one) during a time in my life when I had four toddlers at home. I really feel used having spent that much precious time, just so the church could save a few bucks. :mad:

_________________
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My Blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:04 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 3065
fetchface wrote:
I was never a bishop, but as Elder's Quorum President my experience with church welfare was that my bishop was extremely miserly in dispensing fast offering funds. I spent countless hours trying to help people fix cars before he would just pay to have a real mechanic look them over. I really resent how much time I was asked to devote to various ward members' car trouble (I'm not a mechanic, so I'm not very effective as one) during a time in my life when I had four toddlers at home. I really feel used having spent that much precious time, just so the church could save a few bucks. :mad:


The church that won't pay for janitors more than likely isn't too liberal with welfare expenditures for the members, no matter if some SP somewhere isn't holding a Bishop back from giving $200 for a power bill. It supposedly has $1 Billion per year excess, according to the whistle blower, and gives $40 Million per year in charity, and it counts volunteer hours as part of the $40 Million. So, the actual cash outlay is less than.

I know some over at Sic et Non don't like the word "miser" when it comes to the church financial practices, but it fits so well.

_________________
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:36 pm 
Hermit
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:12 pm
Posts: 9382
Location: Cave
Quote:
The church representative identified himself as someone from the welfare services department. He said the expenditure, as it was a large amount, had been flagged. Then he thanked me for helping the person in need. I briefly described the situation, and he completely surprised me by saying something like


Which only proves the case the critics are making. It even shows he's not posting in good faith, and even he believes the Church is notoriously tight and cheap, and doesn't give a damn about the poor, but at the end of the day is slightly better about it than he originally thought.

_________________
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: My Anecdotal Experience with the $100B Revelation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:19 pm 
God

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:01 am
Posts: 9306
From my Church upbringing, my understanding is that you can buy anything in this world with money. Even the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints. Satan has gotten them so focussed on the accumulation of wealth that Church Leaders prioritise hoarding over any and all Christlike imperatives - this is now an undeniable fact. How can a Church that claims to be led by the Jesus Christ of the New Testament have $100 billion sitting in a bank when people around the world are starving and dying of diseases preventable by having access to clean water? If God and Satan are real people, then the evidence overwhelmingly points to Satan being the one in charge of the Church, not God.

_________________
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 14 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group