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 Post subject: Re: These people will suffer forever!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:32 am 
Son of Perdition
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Shulem wrote:
The Telestial Kingdom is looking mighty fine for some people who weren't very nice. But Mormon apostates who deny the Holy Ghost will go to Outer Darkness because they are the worst!

Doesn't that make sense?

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Mormon theology teaches there is a place for people like Hitler in heaven: the Telestial Kingdom. Leaked temple documents show that Hitler has been Baptized for the Dead on multiple occasions. But the real hell (Outer Darkness) the one that lasts forever is reserved for Mormon Apostates who kick against the pricks and deny the Holy Ghost. For them it would have been better if they had never been incarnated (born on earth) but had remained a spirit forever rather than come here and choose to deny the Holy Ghost and then suffer doom in hell with Satan.

Who are these people? Dr. Shades, consiglieri, perhaps? Terrible Mormon apostates! Murderous monsters who blaspheme the Holy Spook!?

How about YOU! Are you going to Mormon doom?

Have you signed up for the ride?

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: These people will suffer forever!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:21 pm 
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I doubt there are any Mormon apostates who really really know the church is true to be able to qualify for the full denial of truth.

The church would actually have to be all it claims to be and you would have to know it to be.


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 Post subject: Re: These people will suffer forever!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:31 pm 
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Gadianton wrote:
But when they suggest people who leave the Church become violent and earn their reward with Satan by their terrible behavior -- that's outright lying on their part, because they know it's not true.

Church illustrators could retort:

1. "We are lying for the Lord."
2. "Hey, it a paying gig man, like don't go all judgmental on us."

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 Post subject: Re: These people will suffer forever!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:20 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
I doubt there are any Mormon apostates who really really know the church is true to be able to qualify for the full denial of truth.

The church would actually have to be all it claims to be and you would have to know it to be.


I don't think anyone can objectively know, even if it is all true. How could anyone know a being is perfect or has infinite qualities? They can't. It's another contradiction.

(Which is why I would say that faith must be an eternal principle.)


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 Post subject: Re: These people will suffer forever!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:14 am 
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This issue of apostasy casts a more sinister light on the Mormon custom of publicly declaring that one "knows" that "the Church is true". For a non-Mormon Christian it's weird enough that what Mormons find true is their church itself, as opposed to its teaching; not even the Catholics would put it that way, I don't think. But now I'm noticing that other Christians are generally content to profess belief, as opposed to knowledge. The liturgical churches recite ancient creeds which begin, "I believe," not, "I know."

I've been thinking of the insistence on knowledge as just an odd Mormon quirk, intended maybe to assert that Mormons somehow have better grounds for their beliefs than other churches, but otherwise just perpetuated as a linguistic feature of Mormon dialect. Now I'm a little more worried, though. If denying after having known is the deadly third rail for Mormon damnation, then constantly repeating "I know!" may be a way of deliberately doubling down by saying, "May I be damned if I doubt!"

I'm no longer sure it's so innocent for a church to be getting its people to say that all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: These people will suffer forever!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:18 am 
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Physics Guy wrote:
This issue of apostasy casts a more sinister light on the Mormon custom of publicly declaring that one "knows" that "the Church is true". For a non-Mormon Christian it's weird enough that what Mormons find true is their church itself, as opposed to its teaching; not even the Catholics would put it that way, I don't think. But now I'm noticing that other Christians are generally content to profess belief, as opposed to knowledge. The liturgical churches recite ancient creeds which begin, "I believe," not, "I know."

I've been thinking of the insistence on knowledge as just an odd Mormon quirk, intended maybe to assert that Mormons somehow have better grounds for their beliefs than other churches, but otherwise just perpetuated as a linguistic feature of Mormon dialect. Now I'm a little more worried, though. If denying after having known is the deadly third rail for Mormon damnation, then constantly repeating "I know!" may be a way of deliberately doubling down by saying, "May I be damned if I doubt!"

I'm no longer sure it's so innocent for a church to be getting its people to say that all the time.


I think the results can be sinister without sinister intentions.

Mormonism frames spiritual experiences as sources of knowledge, not just belief: Alma 32 describes the process of a tested faith bearing fruit that is then knowledge. Perhaps the knowledge is a result of actions that discover objective answers which can be called knowledge in the normal sense. However, it can also be "spiritual knowledge," like the vision described in D&C 76.

I myself have had vision-like experiences having to do with the Christ, and so, if I had not further developed my beliefs about God being merciful and good, I might have struggled more when I left the church. Namely, I might have felt forced to accept the wickedness of Joseph Smith as an obligation given me through those visions and the resultant "knowledge" they gave me.

Fortunately, I had a core belief in the goodness of God. Even as an agnostic atheist, I have a testimony that if God lives, God is good and that a wicked being cannot be a Supreme Being. And so I trust that a good God would not use a vision of Christ to bind me to a man's wickedness.


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 Post subject: Re: These people will suffer forever!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:32 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
I think the results can be sinister without sinister intentions.

This is an important distinction and I agree that it could apply here. I still think the effect may be quite bad, even if it's something that just kind of happened.

I also think that it could in a sense be deliberate without being deliberately sinister. In a church that puts such emphasis on becoming convinced—to the point of "knowing"—through emotional experiences, there must be a lot of people feeling insecure about whether their particular emotional experiences have really been strong enough. If I felt insecure in that way, I think I might be tempted to make my emotional experiences stronger by declaring them to be strong in a risky way, and thereby top up my emotional cup with fear. Asserting that I knew, and thereby literally risking damnation if I should ever backslide, would be a way to do that. I think it could work even if I didn't have a clear conscious awareness of the doctrine of perdition, because there might be enough of a frisson of spiritual danger just from a vague subconscious impression that some kind of dire responsibility comes with the knowledge that the church is true.

Anyway I think I've kind of seen the sinister side of this Mormon knowing in some of Louis Midgley's comments. He seemed to be specifically upset with people who at one time had professed to know the church was true but had then recanted. I'm not saying that he thought they would be damned. But I think maybe Mormonism does have a sort of horror of backing away from professions of knowledge. The doctrine of perdition may not be the sole source of this horror but it may be one of its symptoms.

And I think I can see why it must be horrible for Mormons when people say they know the church is true but then change their minds. When that happens it simply proves that the emotional conviction never really was knowledge in the first place, and that's horrible because it undermines too much of Mormonism. So the common experience of re-evaluating previous feelings in light of later learning has to be represented as something profoundly perverse.


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 Post subject: Re: These people will suffer forever!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:26 pm 
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Physics Guy wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:
I think the results can be sinister without sinister intentions.

This is an important distinction and I agree that it could apply here. I still think the effect may be quite bad, even if it's something that just kind of happened.

I also think that it could in a sense be deliberate without being deliberately sinister. In a church that puts such emphasis on becoming convinced—to the point of "knowing"—through emotional experiences, there must be a lot of people feeling insecure about whether their particular emotional experiences have really been strong enough. If I felt insecure in that way, I think I might be tempted to make my emotional experiences stronger by declaring them to be strong in a risky way, and thereby top up my emotional cup with fear. Asserting that I knew, and thereby literally risking damnation if I should ever backslide, would be a way to do that. I think it could work even if I didn't have a clear conscious awareness of the doctrine of perdition, because there might be enough of a frisson of spiritual danger just from a vague subconscious impression that some kind of dire responsibility comes with the knowledge that the church is true.

Anyway I think I've kind of seen the sinister side of this Mormon knowing in some of Louis Midgley's comments. He seemed to be specifically upset with people who at one time had professed to know the church was true but had then recanted. I'm not saying that he thought they would be damned. But I think maybe Mormonism does have a sort of horror of backing away from professions of knowledge. The doctrine of perdition may not be the sole source of this horror but it may be one of its symptoms.

And I think I can see why it must be horrible for Mormons when people say they know the church is true but then change their minds. When that happens it simply proves that the emotional conviction never really was knowledge in the first place, and that's horrible because it undermines too much of Mormonism. So the common experience of re-evaluating previous feelings in light of later learning has to be represented as something profoundly perverse.


Physics Guy, I think you have a good clear picture here. The only tiny adjustment I might mention is that the perdition doctrine would be very widely known among members.

I think few if any of the exmembers here would be unfamiliar with fear as an essential element in the process of leaving.


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 Post subject: Re: These people will suffer forever!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:46 pm 
Son of Perdition
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huckelberry wrote:
I doubt there are any Mormon apostates who really really know the church is true to be able to qualify for the full denial of truth.

The church would actually have to be all it claims to be and you would have to know it to be.


The threat of perdition was nasty doctrine borrowed from evil teachings of the bible and further concocted and cooked up by Joseph Smith to maintain fear and order in the ranks. It is a biblical SWASTIKA -- pure evil. The doctrine of perdition and the doom of hellfire was used to scare the sheep into thinking that running away and denying the shepherd would result in going to hell. Smith wasn't doing anything new in threatening his followers with horrible suffering and misery in an eternal state of hell. The bible is on record of that too. Both accounts are an abomination and an affront to all decency and goodness.

Just say "no" to Jesus. Say "no" to Smith too.

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