Teryl Givens throws Gold Plates & Papyrus under the bus.

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Shulem
_Emeritus
Posts: 12072
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: Teryl Givens throws Gold Plates & Papyrus under the bus.

Post by _Shulem »

fetchface wrote:Exactly, if "by his own hand upon papyrus" doesn't mean 'autographic,' then words can mean whatever we want them to, regardless of the intention of the person who said them.


Mormons today be damned. I don't care what those lying rats say. All that matters is what Joseph Smith and his buddies said. Today's apologists are modern rats hardly worthy to lick the dust off ole Joe's boots.

Appeal to the 1828 Dictionary (Smith's time)

"by his own hand upon papyrus"

1. "by": Through, or with, denoting the agent, means, instrument or cause

2. "his": Of him

3. "own": Belonging to; possessed; peculiar; usually expressing property with emphasis, or in express exclusion of others

4. "hand": In man, the extremity of the arm, consisting of the palm and fingers, connected with the arm at the wrist; the part with which we hold and use any instrument

5. "upon": Resting or being on the top or surface

6. "papyrus": Egyptian plant, a kind of reed, of which the ancients made paper
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Re: Teryl Givens throws Gold Plates & Papyrus under the bus.

Post by _I have a question »

The Pearl of Great Price Student Manual wrote:Joseph Smith never claimed that the papyri were autographic (written by Abraham himself),

Hmmm...
A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.


Bare. Faced. Lies.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Shulem
_Emeritus
Posts: 12072
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: Teryl Givens throws Gold Plates & Papyrus under the bus.

Post by _Shulem »

I have a question wrote:
The Pearl of Great Price Student Manual wrote:Joseph Smith never claimed that the papyri were autographic (written by Abraham himself),

Hmmm...
A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.


Bare. Faced. Lies.


The church is not going to get away with this -- Google God won't allow it. Everything is documented and truth is already proclaimed. The church is a very dishonest organization. It doesn't deserve to be classified as a Christian church! If the Mormons were honest and told the truth they might actually become Christians. Image that!

I've been and am adding a little more to Part 1 based on Fence Sitter feeding me some tidbits. This is a go-to site for quick and reasoned points in standing behind Joseph Smith's original claims. The apologists today be damned. Screw them. We don't need them. Let them fight it out among themselves.

Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I
_Shulem
_Emeritus
Posts: 12072
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: Teryl Givens throws Gold Plates & Papyrus under the bus.

Post by _Shulem »

Portrait of a Liar

Image

Nibley
_kairos
_Emeritus
Posts: 1917
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: Teryl Givens throws Gold Plates & Papyrus under the bus.

Post by _kairos »

Hmmm...
A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.


Bare. Faced. Lies.[/quote]

The church is not going to get away with this -- Google God won't allow it. Everything is documented and truth is already proclaimed. The church is a very dishonest organization. It doesn't deserve to be classified as a Christian church! If the Mormons were honest and told the truth they might actually become Christians. Image that!

I've been and am adding a little more to Part 1 based on Fence Sitter feeding me some tidbits. This is a go-to site for quick and reasoned points in standing behind Joseph Smith's original claims. The apologists today be damned. Screw them. We don't need them. Let them fight it out among themselves.

Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I[/quote]

I just read your Book of Abraham part I and am very impressed- you nailed it and them! If
Givens reads your work it will choke him to death with the truth!

Man you got it so damn right!

Very well done!!

kairos
_Shulem
_Emeritus
Posts: 12072
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: Teryl Givens throws Gold Plates & Papyrus under the bus.

Post by _Shulem »

kairos wrote:I just read your Book of Abraham part I and am very impressed- you nailed it and them! If
Givens reads your work it will choke him to death with the truth!

Man you got it so damn right!

Very well done!!

kairos


Thank you so much for appreciating my work in putting that little gem together and recognizing the impact it has in shining light where it belongs.

You'll be happy to know that Part II is in the making.
_grindael
_Emeritus
Posts: 6791
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:15 am

Re: Teryl Givens throws Gold Plates & Papyrus under the bus.

Post by _grindael »

I own an actual copy of the 1913 Improvement Era and these statements by Givens on what it says are bordering on outright lies. The Church even went so far as to hire an anonymous writer by the name James Edward Homans to write under a fictitious name R.C. Webb, claiming to had a Ph.D (he didn't) and published a book through the Deseret News Press called Joseph Smith as a Translator in 1936, defending Joseph Smith abilities as a translator. Add to that we have Nibley's 1968 Improvement articles throughout the whole year which also try and defend Joseph Smith's abilities to translate, and still to this day we have John Gee's & Kerry Muhlestein, arguing for a missing scroll that actually contained the Book of Abraham text.

What we are seeing here by Givins is nothing less that dishonest revisionist history.


Thank You! That's what I thought when I read it, that Givens is simply making crap up. I was going to go and dig mine up, but now I don't have to. I sure don't recall them claiming that Joseph Smith failed as a translator at all. Wow, is lying just second nature to these people? It's disconcerting to say the least.

Edit: Here is a link to the March 1913 Improvement Era.. https://archive.org/details/improvement ... e/page/466
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_Craig Paxton
_Emeritus
Posts: 2389
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:28 pm

Re: Teryl Givens throws Gold Plates & Papyrus under the bus.

Post by _Craig Paxton »

Fence Sitter wrote:I own an actual copy of the 1913 Improvement Era and these statements by Givens on what it says are bordering on outright lies. The Church even went so far as to hire an anonymous writer by the name James Edward Homans to write under a fictitious name R.C. Webb, claiming to had a Ph.D (he didn't) and published a book through the Deseret News Press called Joseph Smith as a Translator in 1936, defending Joseph Smith abilities as a translator. Add to that we have Nibley's 1968 Improvement articles throughout the whole year which also try and defend Joseph Smith's abilities to translate, and still to this day we have John Gee's & Kerry Muhlestein, arguing for a missing scroll that actually contained the Book of Abraham text.

What we are seeing here by Givins is nothing less that dishonest revisionist history.

But then what choice does he have?


More evidence of Gaslighting
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick

“The meaning of life is that it ends" - Franz Kafka
_Maksutov
_Emeritus
Posts: 12480
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: Teryl Givens throws Gold Plates & Papyrus under the bus.

Post by _Maksutov »

Givens is the latest and greatest in Mopology. And he's pathetic and clearly dishonest. All the oh-so-literary handwaving and digressions and deflections and diversions away from the edifice of lies, errors and absurdity that is Mormonism. :rolleyes:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Lemmie
_Emeritus
Posts: 10590
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:25 pm

Re: Teryl Givens throws Gold Plates & Papyrus under the bus.

Post by _Lemmie »

Craig Paxton wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:I own an actual copy of the 1913 Improvement Era and these statements by Givens on what it says are bordering on outright lies. The Church even went so far as to hire an anonymous writer by the name James Edward Homans to write under a fictitious name R.C. Webb, claiming to had a Ph.D (he didn't) and published a book through the Deseret News Press called Joseph Smith as a Translator in 1936, defending Joseph Smith abilities as a translator. Add to that we have Nibley's 1968 Improvement articles throughout the whole year which also try and defend Joseph Smith's abilities to translate, and still to this day we have John Gee's & Kerry Muhlestein, arguing for a missing scroll that actually contained the Book of Abraham text.

What we are seeing here by Givins is nothing less that dishonest revisionist history.

But then what choice does he have?


More evidence of Gaslighting

The gaslighting might actually be the goal here.
Post Reply