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 Post subject: Mr Soares introduces new differentiations for doctrine
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:33 am 
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For the first time during a Face to Face event, Elder Soares and Elder Christensen answered a few questions in Portuguese and Spanish. The devotional was broadcast live from a studio on the Brigham Young University campus in Provo, Utah.

While clarifying the difference between fixed teachings of the Church and those that are changeable, Elder Soares said, “Changes in policies are not new.”

Elder Soares and Elder Christensen used examples from the scriptures to illustrate core doctrines of the gospel of Jesus Christ that will never change and policies throughout history that have changed.

https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... sen-160518

Quote:
“But the purpose of why we’re here and the ordinances of the temple will never change,” Elder Christensen said.

Of course, he's lying. The blacks not being able to receive the priesthood was doctrine, and then it changed. Plural marriage was the doctrine and only way into the Celestial Kingdom, until it wasn't. The temple ordinances have undergone changes. And more recently, the revelation that led to the children of gay parents being barred from baptism has also been given a U-Turn.

So what are the core doctrines of the gospel of Jesus Christ that will never change? Where can we find the definitive list?

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“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')


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 Post subject: Re: Mr Soares introduces new differentiations for doctrine
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:57 am 
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Ah, the circular definition of doctrine. Doctrine doesn't change and we know something isn't doctrine if it has changed. Maybe somebody mistakenly called it doctrine at some point, but we know it wasn't doctrine if it changed.

This kind of logic comes with its own get out of jail free card.

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 Post subject: Re: Mr Soares introduces new differentiations for doctrine
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:46 am 
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This yet again illustrates why Mormonism is so blase and not worth the candle. They are harping on doctrine, and doctrine is the least important thing in life. I just recently read Joseph Campbell's Biography from two of his former students and friend "Joseph Campbell, Fire in the Mind," which was just one of the most beautiful experiences I have had while alive. What a treasure! And there is the key which Mormonism has not grasped. We are not looking for doctrines. Who cares about doctrines? That is simply someone else's fundamentalism. So what? Those mean nothing. We are not looking for the meaning of life. We are looking for the experience of life.

That struck me like a ton of brick in this book. We are looking to become transparent to transcendence. WOW! There it is. Conforming to doctrine is just a bore. It is nothing. Living, living and following your bliss, experiencing life..... now that is what Mormonism is missing entirely and why it has lost its appeal.

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: Mr Soares introduces new differentiations for doctrine
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:49 am 
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What confuses me is the evolving definitions of three words: policy, doctrine, truth.

Would very much appreciating the church providing a clear definition of those words, including (a) which change and which cannot (b) procedure for reclassification.


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 Post subject: Re: Mr Soares introduces new differentiations for doctrine
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:29 am 
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Dr Moore wrote:
What confuses me is the evolving definitions of three words: policy, doctrine, truth.

Would very much appreciating the church providing a clear definition of those words, including (a) which change and which cannot (b) procedure for reclassification.

I realise that moving into a new office, particularly one as plush as your new Cassius abode, can cause significant stress. So please forgive me pointing this out...but...there’s a fourth word in the set - revelation.

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 Post subject: Re: Mr Soares introduces new differentiations for doctrine
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:39 am 
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Too true, but on the plus side, I am getting more sun.

Isn't revelation the magic eraser that can, and does, change the definition and classification of items in those 3 buckets?


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 Post subject: Re: Mr Soares introduces new differentiations for doctrine
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:50 am 
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Dr Moore wrote:
Too true, but on the plus side, I am getting more sun.

Isn't revelation the magic eraser that can, and does, change the definition and classification of items in those 3 buckets?
During the winter months faculty are allowed to book sessions with the University’s tanning lamp. There is only one so book early to avoid disappointment, the Dean is prone to hogging it.

In terms of revelation, I add it as a seperate bucket because the definition of what constitutes a revelation has changed over the years. We now have Mr Nelson waking up in the middle of the night with a thought which he writes down - that’s now revelation. Of course, when Mr Nelson has to take a u-turn on what he once claimed to be revelation it is forced into the policy bucket. Or worse, after he’s dead his ‘revelations’ can become, sometimes instantly, merely his own personal thoughts and opinions.

Policy doesn’t have to come via revelation.
Modern revelation doesn’t become doctrine, by the criteria the Church puts on what is doctrine.
And truth seems to be whatever the living leader says today, even if it contradicts what he said yesterday, whether claimed as revelation or not.

In some respects we are discussing a few words that can have their definition changed over time as it suits the Church. But in reality the definitions of ALL words are subject to change within Mormonism. Translation for instance.

_________________
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')


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 Post subject: Re: Mr Soares introduces new differentiations for doctrine
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:28 am 
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The distinction between policy and doctrine is a red herring meant to distract from the real problem. The plain meaning of the word "doctrine" is: belief taught by a group such as a church.

To establish whether something is a doctrine, all one has to do is look and see if the church taught it as a belief. If so, it is a doctrine.

The church is forced to play stupid word games because they can't admit that they ever taught something of importance that is wrong, which they clearly have, then they can try and sort all of the mistakes they have made into the "policy" bin (along with administrative stuff of no real importance) and put everything else in the "doctrine" bin. Then the followers can still believe the church is infallible. It's all about giving people a mental "out" and allow the church to have its cake and eat it too.

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 Post subject: Re: Mr Soares introduces new differentiations for doctrine
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:04 pm 
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The question is: what are the core doctrine(s) that distinguish Mormons from mainstream Christian doctrines? Obviously those beliefs that are based on Christ, atonement, resurrection and such, cannot change.

So what is doctrine in the Mormon church that sets it apart from other religions that cannot change?

Simple, it is obedience to priesthood authority.

That's it.

Anything else is subject to changed based on a late night bout of indigestion revelation Nelson might get.

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What Joseph Smith should have said: "No man knows my hagiography."
What Jane Manning did say: "I am white except for the color of my skin."


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 Post subject: Re: Mr Soares introduces new differentiations for doctrine
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:08 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
The question is: what are the core doctrine(s) that distinguish Mormons from mainstream Christian doctrines? Obviously those beliefs that are based on Christ, atonement, resurrection and such, cannot change.

So what is doctrine in the Mormon church that sets it apart from other religions that cannot change?

Simple, it is obedience to priesthood authority.

That's it.

Anything else is subject to changed based on a late night bout of indigestion revelation Nelson might get.
That is the key question. But Mr Soares chose not to provide that clarification. Probably because he couldn’t.

_________________
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')


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