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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:12 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Great assessment- fictional avoids the physical proof issues at first, but then, eventually, one has to ask, what’s the draw of a fictional doctrine?


The doctrine doesn't have to be fictional, the stories are fictional. The priesthood and salvation can still be real. An angel appearing could be real. How can one be drawn to a story in the same way one can be drawn to a real event? (if that was part of what you were asking)

This is my main point: I don't know how, I just know that one can, because I know that: it seemed impossible just a few years ago to be drawn to documents that have nothing to do with Joseph's supposed translations. If we can believe Joseph and co. were deceived about translating, while we are still drawn to the product as mystical, then the next generation will understand that we were deceived about historicity, and still be drawn to the fictional product as mystical.

God let's each generation act within its own play, so to speak; each generation peels off another layer of the onion.

fifty years from now, Kiwi107 will either be telling those of his day that it was an anti-Mormon lie that the Book of Abraham is historical, or that it was believed, but not by the educated who had access to the future writers of Mopologetics.

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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:14 am 
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Gadianton wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
Great assessment- fictional avoids the physical proof issues at first, but then, eventually, one has to ask, what’s the draw of a fictional doctrine?


The doctrine doesn't have to be fictional, the stories are fictional. The priesthood and salvation can still be real. An angel appearing could be real. How can one be drawn to a story in the same way one can be drawn to a real event? (if that was part of what you were asking)
yes, sorry, I should have defined it as doctrine based on fictional stories. Growing up, the story I remember was always- how can this be “true,” unless the the Book of Mormon was “true”?
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This is my main point: I don't know how, I just know that one can, because I know that: it seemed impossible just a few years ago to be drawn to documents that have nothing to do with Joseph's supposed translations. If we can believe Joseph and co. were deceived about translating, while we are still drawn to the product as mystical, then the next generation will understand that we were deceived about historicity, and still be drawn to the fictional product as mystical.

God let's each generation act within its own play, so to speak; each generation peels off another layer of the onion.

fifty years from now, Kiwi107 will either be telling those of his day that it was an anti-Mormon lie that the Book of Abraham is historical, or that it was believed, but not by the educated who had access to the future writers of Mopologetics.

! That evolution is what is fascinating to me. Watching it from the outside is just bizarre.
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fifty years from now, Kiwi107
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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:31 am 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
When Givens says the church “essentially conceded,” he means “didn't actually concede.” It’s kind of refreshing to hear him state that Smith couldn’t translate Egyptian. But using terms like “essentially conceded” to hand waive away decades of lies is just a continuation of the same old pattern of prevarication.

Great point. I came of age in the '90s and I remember learning in Seminary/Sunday School that Joseph Smith translated egyptian writings. The idea that the church conceded that he didn't actually translate is counter to my experience. They may have conceded it to somebody, somewhere but the church certainly didn't concede it to teenage me.

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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:12 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
I apologize for not being on top of my apologetics, but is this the direction Mormon belief is going? Joseph Smith channeled the Book of Mormon? It does sort of avoid the problem of the non-extant gold plates, and the fact that the content of the extant papyri was obviously not correctly interpreted.

I don’t think it adds any credibility at all however, given that, in my experience, religions seem to look down on channeling as an element of the occult that is inappropriate in a Christian setting.


Moving to a revelatory dictation process to account for the Book of Mormon instead of the traditional translation of Golden Plates solves many problems but also creates many other problems. If we assume that Smith received the Book of Mormon via revelatory means it bring into question why the Mormon God needed all of the claimed physical objects associated with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in the first place...such as Golden Plates, the Angel Moroni and the Hill Cumorah. It also doesn't explain why God through revelation would incorporate 1769 King James errors into the Book of Mormon, the inclusion of the Doxology of the Lord's Prayer (which was a late addition) found in 3rd Nephi, inclusion of the Abrahamic covenant, Flood and Tower myths, all of the anachronisms and specific names, unique animals such as curlem and shiblun or senum for money names. Is it believable that God would reveal these to Joseph for his most "correct" Book? A revelatory option does not remove the problems of a tight vs loose translation either...would God "reveal" both a tight and loose revelation within the same revelation?

Once LDS apologist's begin the watering down of the traditional narratives to help explain away known problems, they are only opening up other problems that will need even more apologetic explanations to plug the new holes they've created.

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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:17 pm 
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Lemmie,

As an aside, thanks for bringing this quote to our attention, it's remarkable:

Givens wrote:
Many who stay do so because they are intellectually incurious and not apt to be troubled by new developments or discoveries. And many who leave do so because they are intellectually curious, but not intellectually open enough to reformulations of faith paradigms. So we may be losing the moderate middle


I'd wager he's said as much in his publishing, as I know MG is fascinated with Givens, and this kind of thinking is a big part of his text walls.

The Goldilocks argument. lol. Going to go on my list of fallacies specifically invented by Mormon apologists.

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FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:36 pm 
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Gadianton wrote:
Lemmie,

As an aside, thanks for bringing this quote to our attention, it's remarkable:

Givens wrote:
Many who stay do so because they are intellectually incurious and not apt to be troubled by new developments or discoveries. And many who leave do so because they are intellectually curious, but not intellectually open enough to reformulations of faith paradigms. So we may be losing the moderate middle


I'd wager he's said as much in his publishing, as I know MG is fascinated with Givens, and this kind of thinking is a big part of his text walls.

The Goldilocks argument. lol. Going to go on my list of fallacies specifically invented by Mormon apologists.


Isn't being "intellectually open enough to reformulate faith paradigms" the very definition of mental gymnastics?

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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:11 pm 
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Analytics wrote:
Isn't being "intellectually open enough to reformulate faith paradigms" the very definition of mental gymnastics?


An excellent question without an easy answer. I can only attempt the answer in parts.

1) I think Gemli would say, "why yes, that's correct" and end of discussion. If the prophet said x, y, z, and x, y, z go bankrupt, then the bedrock of prophetic authority is undermined, so reformulating is essentially just leaving and making up your own thing anyway.

2) From an anthropologist view, it's naïve to think the human race will move from throwing spears in the name of their "Man of War" Jehovah, to going Star Trek overnight. Secularization happens as a series of reformulations. If ISIS were to do mental gymnastics and discover how to interpret scripture metaphorically, I'm hoping we wouldn't fault them for it.

3) There is a huge problem playing both villager and anthropologist as Givens does, and as "Mormon Studies" I think does, in general. Reformers don't see themselves as reformers, they see themselves getting back to fundamentals. To the extent BYU biologists actually believe what they're teaching, they are getting back to fundamental teachings by wiping away cobwebs of speculation and conjecture that were never part of the gospel picture. As anthropologists, we watch our Mormon subjects pick and choose from the cafeteria, but they don't believe they are picking and choosing, they select what they were commanded to eat. The Mormon Studies anthropologist cheers them on as they pick and choose, puzzles at those walking out, and then walks up to the pasta bar and says, "I think I'll choose to believe God said we should keep the meat sauce but cut out the Parmesan."

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FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:48 am 
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“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')

In his book, Syed also references an experiment by Leon Festinger. Festinger had a theory about what would happen to cult followers when the cult Leader made a prophecy which ultimately didn't come true. Basically, in 1954 a woman in Minnesota (Dorothy Martin) who claimed to be receiving divine instruction from a God foretold of a great flood and warned her neighbours that only true believers would be saved (by a spaceship no less). Some of her neighbours left jobs, sold houses etc in preparation for the flood. When the foretold apocalypse didn't happen on the designated date and time those true believers, instead of realising it was all baloney, doubled down and became even more defiant in their following of this Prophetess. They convinced themselves (reframed the evidence) into believing that the same God who told Dorothy the flood was coming had been merciful and saved them from the flood happening in the first place because of their faithfulness. (See 'Black Box Thinking' Mathew Syed Page 78/79. Festinger wrote about the experience in his book 'When Prophecy Fails').

Terryl Givens is simply doing what the followers of Dorothy Martin did, and encouraging others to follow suit.

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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:51 am 
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Quote:
"Abraham's teachings and writings on the creation, the priesthood, and the resurrection were adopted and integrated by the Egyptians into derivative writings in their own sacred burial texts discussing immortality and the afterlife, which were adapted and corrupted over time resulting in a version of the Book of Breathings that Joseph obtained. Then Joseph translated it to extract the original truths in Abraham's gospel teachings that influenced the Egyptian writings."

Wanting to support the Book of Abraham is one thing, but lying about the Book of Breathings being a corruption of the Book of Abraham is hubris and the denigration of Egyptian history on a large scale. It is akin to Givens taking a torch to the Great Library of Alexandria in the name of LDS apologetics.

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