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 Post subject: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham were channeled?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:04 pm 
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Terryl_Givens

...Revelation is not dictating verbal communiques from God. At least not usually. I don't think Joseph Smith himself understood precisely what happened when he was in a revelatory state.(Nor did Paul: "whether in the body or out of the body...").

So i believe that the BofA was revealed to Joseph Smith. But he was not deriving it from the papyrus in front of him, any more than Joseph Smith was a translator of Reformed Egyptian.

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Terryl_Givens• 25m •

I think you are precisely correct--with the proviso that he sincerely thought them to be what he claimed, and sincerely believed he was deciphering their meaning directly. (And may have been, if he was working from a scroll now longer extant).

I find that scenario comports with the evidence, and with what we know of Joseph Smith's character. He was much like Peter. He was impetuous, impulsive, excitable. I love his aggressive, intellectually adventurous mind, and think a key to his nature and process was his lament that he "did not have the same right vouchsafed to every other American to speak his mind freely, but there was always someone taking notes and imputing prophetic authority to his words."(paraphrase).

He loved to speculate, and spoke and acted at times rather imprudently. What bigger than life characters in the scriptures did not?

It doesn't bother me that he turns out to have been channeling rather than translating-- esp. given the fact that that is how we got the BofM.

https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaint ... ivens_ama/

I apologize for not being on top of my apologetics, but is this the direction Mormon belief is going? Joseph Smith channeled the Book of Mormon? It does sort of avoid the problem of the non-extant gold plates, and the fact that the content of the extant papyri was obviously not correctly interpreted.

I don’t think it adds any credibility at all however, given that, in my experience, religions seem to look down on channeling as an element of the occult that is inappropriate in a Christian setting.


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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham were channeled?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:10 pm 
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Oh dear. Fair warning, shulem, this may be triggering:

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Terryl_Givens• 12m •

Some LDS scholars of Egyptian give Joseph Smith credit or at least being in the ballpark with his interpretations of the vignettes, for instance.

:rolleyes:


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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:11 pm 
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I suspect it was poor word choice. I don’t think he was talking about JZ Knight and Ramtha. Although I’d pay good money to see Smith channel Abraham...

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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:14 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Oh dear. Fair warning, shulem, this may be triggering:

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Terryl_Givens• 12m •

Some LDS scholars of Egyptian give Joseph Smith credit or at least being in the ballpark with his interpretations of the vignettes, for instance.

:rolleyes:

Of course, it’s a really, really big ballpark. I’m not sure anyone has actually seen the fences. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:15 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
I suspect it was poor word choice. I don’t think he was talking about JZ Knight and Ramtha. Although I’d pay good money to see Smith channel Abraham...


Not at all. Channeling is the perfect description for it. Same as the Course in Miracles, the Seth Materials, the productions of Madame Blavatsky, many, many others...there are thousands of channeled texts online. Many are self-published in Amazon. People have been channeling texts for as long as they've chosen to consider their inner monologue the voice of another being.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... lled_texts

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=channeled+te ... _sb_noss_2

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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:35 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
I suspect it was poor word choice. I don’t think he was talking about JZ Knight and Ramtha. Although I’d pay good money to see Smith channel Abraham...


Not at all. Channeling is the perfect description for it. Same as the Course in Miracles, the Seth Materials, the productions of Madame Blavatsky, many, many others...there are thousands of channeled texts online. Many are self-published in Amazon. People have been channeling texts for as long as they've chosen to consider their inner monologue the voice of another being.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... lled_texts

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=channeled+te ... _sb_noss_2


I was thinking of the term as used here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediumship#Channeling I don’t think he meant to suggest that Smith’s spirit left his body and Abraham’s spirit inhabited Smith’s body and wrote the book. I think the author meant that the contents of the book were transmitted to Smith, by Abraham or by someone or something else. I would describe that as some other flavor of mediumship.

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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham were channeled?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:49 pm 
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Boy, this would be a change of pace if apologists trend this way. Our late friend, Clark Goble, insisted I was an idiot for pointing out Joseph Smith divined scripture, rather than translating it. Like. He really, really didn’t like that angle.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham were channeled?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:51 pm 
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It would be interesting to confirm exactly what Givens meant, given the word has a specific and commonly accepted meaning. (Not that that means anything. Cough<translate>cough. :rolleyes:) I don’t see any clarification, has he indicated before that he uses a non-standard meaning for that word?


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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:20 pm 
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Veeeerrrry Interesting!

Brian C. Hales, pens a lengthy article in the just out summer 2019 Dialogue-sorry i only have a hard copy, "automatic writing and the Book of Mormon: an update" . He also is trying to get to the source of the Book of Mormon - he identifies automatic writing also called spirit writing or trance writing channeling,psychography, abnormal writing, independent writing-lot of names one of which might be what Givens is thinking about.

Hales cites 16 cases of such writing and compares each ( eg Davis who could read and write at a basic level, penned 340,000 words in a trance state coming up with"Principles of Nature") them to the 269,528 words in the Book of Mormon.

Hales concludes that there are undeniable similarities between the creation of the Book of Mormon and these other documents created through automatic writing. That being so he still identifies the key question of "where in the hell did the words come from for the Book of Mormon"- it remains a mystery to him. Perhaps a Cruise Lady Book of Mormon lands tour with Royal "Ghosting" Skousen, Woody "i will whip your ass with my cane" Midgely , Professor Daniel "yes and no" Peterson, Dr John "the Book of Abraham scroll is REALLY missing" and Dr Terry "if there were Lamanites we can't find them, but don't worry" Givens will clear the brain fog but probably not.

Hales is an MD anesthesiologist in Utah and the writer of 7 books on plural marriage - he has been prez of the john whitmer historical assn as well as the utah medical assn. Also he is a contributor to BYU studies and that well known peer reviewed scholarly mopologetic journal by name of Interpreter.

just puttin it out there!

k


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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:22 pm 
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My response to this is to keep going until channeling becomes what it really was: making it up.

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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:41 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
I suspect it was poor word choice. I don’t think he was talking about JZ Knight and Ramtha. Although I’d pay good money to see Smith channel Abraham...

The 19th century founder of Christian Science, Mary Baker Eddy, is said to have channelled Abraham (Lincoln) in her days as a medium. Spiritualism was popular in much of the 19th Century and people (including Mary Baker Eddy for a time) could earn a living as traveling mediums. They would be paid for holding seances to contact the dead and for working with steady clients to relay messages from loved one who had passed or the spirits of notables from the great beyond.

Later in life Mary Baker Eddy is said to have lost her belief in spiritualism, but apparently the damage had been done. If channeling was good enough for a Christian Science, why not Mormonism?

It's as good or better than anything else Mopologists have come up with to defend the indefensible.


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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham were channeled?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:46 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Oh dear. Fair warning, shulem, this may be triggering:

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Terryl_Givens• 12m •

Some LDS scholars of Egyptian give Joseph Smith credit or at least being in the ballpark with his interpretations of the vignettes, for instance.

:rolleyes:

Total joke! Absolutely no credibility can be derived from utter apologetic nonsense. The interpretations of the vignettes have absolutely no support or backing from a single non-Mormon Egyptologist on planet earth. The Mormons continue to print and spread lies having their conscience seared -- devoid of all common sense.

:rolleyes:

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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham were channeled?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:07 pm 
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Terryl Givens wrote:
So i believe that the BofA was revealed to Joseph Smith. But he was not deriving it from the papyrus in front of him

Terryl Givens, meet Joseph Smith the real authority of Mormonism:

JOSEPH SMITH

The Saga of the Book of Abraham; Jay M. Todd, p. 211
The Story of the Pearl of Great Price; James R. Clark, p. 112 wrote:
My time has been hitherto too much taken up to translate the whole of them, but I will show you how I interpret certain parts. There, that is the signature of the patriarch Abraham.

Terryl, are you calling Joseph Smith a liar? I will submit your name for excommunication! You're out!

:twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:49 pm 
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SIDNEY RIGDON CHANNELING THE DEAD


"Automatic writing" or "spirit writing" is the ability that a person has to write or dictate complex and often lengthy pieces of writing while in a kind of trance. In many cases, the "author" claims to be in communication with a "person" who has died, a "familiar spirit" or an angel.

In 1985, Scott C. Dunn proposed that "Automatic writing" played a role in the creation of the Book of Mormon ("Spirit Writing, Another Look at the Book of Mormon," Sunstone, June 1985, Vol.10, No. 6, pages 17-26).

Dunn theorized that Joseph Smith used automatic writing to produce the Book of Mormon. While it is difficult to find evidence that Smith engaged in automatic writing, we have absolute proof that Sidney Rigdon did.

In 1868, Sidney Rigdon was Prophet, Seer and Revelator for a small group of Mormons in New York. In his capacity as prophet, Rigdon regularly received revelations, often directed at specific followers. His revelations include channeling of the dead. He recorded these revelations and sent them to his follower Stephen Post. The resulting compilation of revelations (in Rigdon's handwriting) are available today in the Stephen Post Collection at the University of Utah, where they are stored as Copying Book A & Book of the Revelations of Jesus Christ to the Children of Zion Through Sidney Rigdon Prophet & Seer & Revelator. Essentially this scripture can be viewed as The Doctrine and Covenants Part II.

The following excerpt from the Book of the Revelations of Jesus Christ to the Children of Zion is one of Rigdon's revelations. In it, Rigdon channels a spirit (angel) named Phineas, who he claims is the grandson of Aaron.

In a preface to the revelation, Rigdon states:

To my great surprise Phineas grandson of Aaron has spoken to me concerning Israel Huffaker. I will send it to you & you must copy & send to him."

The revelation containing the words of Phineas as revealed through Sidney Rigdon is labeled Section 86. In it, we read the following:

Phineas the angel high priest to his son and descendant. Behold I am Phineas the son of Eliezur who was the son of Aaron, and according to the law and power of the holy priesthood, which priesthood has power as ministering angels, when they maintain their priesthood in the flesh during all their fleshly existence in purity.

I Phineas being of the high priesthood and having been adjudged by the courts above as one who had honoured the Holy priesthood during all my days I obtained the privilege and power of ministering to those in the flesh who had obtained & were consecrated to the priesthood.

Therefore I Phineas speak to you my son in the priesthood as a father to his son knowing the character of your calling & the solemnity of its influence, and the manner in which you will be assailed by the devices of the adversary that he may bring you under condemnation and cast you down at his feet.

To preserve the priesthood of his church from being overcome by the Devil, the Lord of Zion has given a law, the strict obedience to which will shield them against all the subtle artifices of Satan, and enable them to overcome the devil, the world, and the flesh."

Rigdon then continues to channel Phineas as he gives instructions to his follower Israel Huffaker, concluding with the following commands to Huffaker:

And the Lord claims to himself the right of declaring unto you what you shall do in order that you may serve him and not be ensnared by the Devil.

O! Israel remember who has spoken these things to you one of your forefathers in the line of the priesthood to which you by birth belong.

One who shall see you in the world of spirits and you shall then see and know him who by this and through this has spoken to you.

Where O where shall I see you in that day of awful solemnity shall we strike hands with eternal joy or shall I see you sink, yea sink into the gulf of eternal woe howling in horror and anguish. This will be your fate unless you give heed to every word of the Lord spoken to you. Amen."

The above account of Rigdon channeling Phineas is important for several reasons, not least of which is its relevance to authorship of the Book of Mormon.

In Bainbridge, Ohio, in the year 1826, Sidney Rigdon reportedly became involved in a séance-like process to create the Book of Mormon. A description of that process is given in an in a letter to the editor of The New Northwest in an article entitled "The Mormon Bible", published September 9, 1880.

The letter reads:

We are in receipt of a letter from Mr. O. P. Henry, an Astoria subscriber, who says, in reference to an article in the Oregonian of recent date concerning the origin of the Mormon Bible, that his mother, who is yet alive, lived in the family of Sidney Rigdon for several years prior to her marriage in 1827; that there was in the family what is now called a "writing medium," also several others in adjacent places, and the Mormon Bible was written by two or three different persons by an automatic power which they believed was inspiration direct from God, the same as produced the original Jewish Bible and Christian New Testament. Mr. H. believes that Sidney Rigdon furnished Joseph Smith with these manuscripts, and that the story of the "hieroglyphics" was a fabrication to make the credulous take hold of the mystery; that Rigdon, having learned, beyond a doubt, that the so-called dead could communicate to the living, considered himself duly authorized by Jehovah to found a new church, under a divine guidance similar to that of Confucius, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Swedenborg, Calvin, Luther or Wesley, all of whom believed in and taught the ministration of spirits. The New Northwest gives place to Mr. Henry's idea as a matter of general interest. The public will, of course, make its own comments and draw its own conclusion.

"Origin of a Great Imposture.", Morning Oregonian, Vol. XX No. 6031, August 16, 1880.

Dale Broadhurst has confirmed several aspects of the above account, and compiled additional historical evidence pointing to Bainbridge as the likely location for production of the 1827 version of the Book of Mormon. Captain Henry of Geauga by Frederick A. Henry and "Did Sidney Rigdon write the Book of Mormon?" by Carl M. Brewster.

Describing the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 26:16, reads

For those who shall be destroyed shall speak unto them out of the ground, and their speech shall be low out of the dust, and their voice shall be as one that hath a familiar spirit … and their speech shall whisper out of the dust.

The above description sounds like automatic writing, and is consistent with the Bainbridge report on Rigdon's activities in writing the Book of Mormon.

Evidently, Rigdon thought he was communicating with the dead—or he made it appear as though he were communicating with the dead. And perhaps Rigdon did have a kind of "familiar spirit" to inspire him – the writings of Solomon Spalding, a man who had died 10 years earlier.



Parley Pratt, a follower of Rigdon, on the channeling of dead spirits
Parley P Pratt was a follower of Rigdon before his sudden conversion to Mormonism (described in contradictory accounts).

On April 6, 1853, Pratt gave a speech on Spiritual Communication in the Conference in Salt Lake City. Some excerpts are provided below:

Pratt begins his discourse by citing Isaiah on "familiar spirits

And when they shall say unto you, seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep and mutter; should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to hear from the dead?

Pratt relates the Isaiah text to the Book of Mormon

The foregoing text was copied by Nephi, from the Book of Isaiah, about six hundred years before Christ, and is now contained in the second Book of Nephi, chap. ix.

Pratt then describes how the world has come to accept the possibility of communication with the dead}

For the last few years the world has been disturbed very much by alleged communications from the world of spirits. "Mesmerism," "Clairvoyance," "Spiritual Knockings," "Writing Mediums," &c., are said to be channels of communication between the living and the dead. How often one meets with an invitation to seek to some "medium"-to some one "familiar with spirits," in order to hear from a deceased father, mother, husband, wife, or other relative or friend.

Pratt points out that some oppose the idea that the dead can communicate with the living

On the other hand, these alleged communications from the spirit world are zealously opposed, on the ground that there is no such philosophy in nature; that there can be no medium of communication between the living and those who have passed the vale of death; and that, therefore, all alleged communications from that source must necessarily be false.

Pratt says that the faithful cannot deny that the dead communicate with the living or they will be denying the very foundation of the Church

….If, on the other hand, we deny the philosophy or the fact of spiritual communication between the living and those who have died, we deny the very fountain from which emanated the great truths or principles which were the foundation of both the ancient and modern Church.

Pratt gives scriptural examples of the dead communicating with the living then says

Shall we, then, deny the principle, the philosophy, the fact of communication between worlds? No! verily no!

Pratt then rejoices that the rest of the world now recognizes the importance of spirit world communication

Editors, statesmen, philosophers, priests, and lawyers, as well as the common people, began to advocate the principle of converse with the dead, by visions, divination, clairvoyance, knocking, and writing mediums, &c., &c. This spiritual philosophy of converse with the dead, once established by the labors, toils, sufferings, and martyrdom of its modern founders, and now embraced by a large portion of the learned world, shows a triumph more rapid and complete-a victory more extensive, than has ever been achieved in the same length of time in our world.

Pratt continues, now emphasizing that other groups that communicate with the dead use "unlawful mediums" or improper "channels of communication

The fact of spiritual communications being established, by which the living hear from the dead-being no longer a question of controversy with the well informed, we drop that point, and call attention to the means of discriminating or judging between the lawful and the unlawful mediums or channels of communication-between the holy and impure, the truths and falsehoods, thus communicated.

Pratt concludes that only those who hold the keys of the Priesthood can properly communicate with the dead

It is, then, a matter of certainty, according to the things revealed to the ancient Prophets, and renewed unto us, that all the animal magnetic phenomena, all the trances and visions of clairvoyant states, all the phenomena of spiritual knockings, writing mediums, &c., are from impure, unlawful, and unholy sources; and that those holy and chosen vessels which hold the keys of Priesthood in this world, in the spirit world, or in the world of resurrected beings, stand as far aloof from all these improper channels, or unholy mediums, of spiritual communication, as the heavens are higher than the earth, or as the mysteries of the third heaven, which are unlawful to utter, differ from the jargon of sectarian ignorance and folly, or the divinations of foul spirits, abandoned wizards, magic-mongers, jugglers, and fortune-tellers.

"Spiritual Communication, Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 2 pp. 43-47.

It is tempting to speculate that Pratt understood the process used to create the Book of Mormon.

Sidney Rigdon reportedly became involved in a seance-like process to create the Book of Mormon. A description of that process is given in an in a letter to the editor of The New Northwest newspaper:

…there was in the [Rigdon] family what is now called a "writing medium," also several others in adjacent places, and the Mormon Bible was written by two or three different persons by an automatic power which they believed was inspiration direct from God

"The Mormon Bible," The New Northwest, Portland, Oregon, Thurs., September 9, 1880, Vol. X No. 1.

In the time period when Rigdon was allegedly channeling the dead to create the Book of Mormon (1825-26), Pratt was a peddlar of tin working in the same area of Ohio as Sidney Rigdon.

just sayin''
http://www.mormonthink.com/josephweb.htm#channel


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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:56 pm 
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Arc wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
I suspect it was poor word choice. I don’t think he was talking about JZ Knight and Ramtha. Although I’d pay good money to see Smith channel Abraham...

The 19th century founder of Christian Science, Mary Baker Eddy, is said to have channelled Abraham (Lincoln) in her days as a medium. Spiritualism was popular in much of the 19th Century and people (including Mary Baker Eddy for a time) could earn a living as traveling mediums. They would be paid for holding seances to contact the dead and for working with steady clients to relay messages from loved one who had passed or the spirits of notables from the great beyond.

Later in life Mary Baker Eddy is said to have lost her belief in spiritualism, but apparently the damage had been done. If channeling was good enough for a Christian Science, why not Mormonism?

It's as good or better than anything else Mopologists have come up with to defend the indefensible.


I don’t think the question is “why not Mormonism?” The question is what did Givens mean when he used the word “channeled?” I did some googling and found several instances where he used “channeled” to mean “guided or directed.” That’s also a common meaning of the word. So what did he mean in the AMA (which was a live interview five years ago)? Have we heard Givens or other apologists since then claiming that Abraham’s spirit literally took over Smith’s body? Nope. If claiming that Smith was some kind of 17th Century JZ Knight was some kind of trend in apologetics that started five years ago, wouldn’t you expect that we would have heard something about it in the last five years?

Note also the context — Givens was specifically contrasting channeling with translating. He’s saying that the contents of the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham were guided or directed to Smith without Smith actually translating Egyptian (or Reformed Egyptian.)

Picking the most outrageous interpretation of a word and using that as a basis for criticizing the speaker isn’t good sleuthing or analysis—it ranges from silly to mendacious. There is no reason to believe that when Givens said “channeled” five years ago, he meant spirit possession. Claiming that he did is the type of over the top behavior that LDS folks rightly criticize critics for engaging in.

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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:59 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Terryl Givens wrote:
So i believe that the BofA was revealed to Joseph Smith. But he was not deriving it from the papyrus in front of him

Terryl Givens, meet Joseph Smith the real authority of Mormonism...

It’s not that long ago that comment would have been classed as apostate and anti-mormon. As it is, it throws Joseph Smith under the bus.

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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:06 pm 
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This is why I see Mormonism as related to spiritualism. They emerged from a common occult cultural stream. The Refiner's Fire discusses the Hermetic influences on Mormonism...more of the same bundle.

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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraha
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:15 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:

I don’t think the question is “why not Mormonism?” The question is what did Givens mean when he used the word “channeled?” I did some googling and found several instances where he used “channeled” to mean “guided or directed.” That’s also a common meaning of the word. So what did he mean in the AMA (which was a live interview five years ago)? Have we heard Givens or other apologists since then claiming that Abraham’s spirit literally took over Smith’s body? Nope. If claiming that Smith was some kind of 17th Century JZ Knight was some kind of trend in apologetics that started five years ago, wouldn’t you expect that we would have heard something about it in the last five years?

Picking the most outrageous interpretation of a word and using that as a basis for criticizing the speaker isn’t good sleuthing or analysis—it ranges from silly to mendacious. There is no reason to believe that when Givens said “channeled” five years ago, he meant spirit possession. Claiming that he did is the type of over the top behavior that LDS folks rightly criticize critics for engaging in.

That’s incorrect. While Givens did do an AMA 5 years ago, the quote I pulled out that used the term “channeling” is, to the best of my knowledge, from a reddit AMA he did TODAY, re a new book:

https://www.reddit.com/r/latterdaysaint ... ivens_ama/

If Givens meant the word in some way other than the commonly accepted definition, it would be interesting to read. Could you put up a link for your instances where you documented that he meant “guided or directed”?


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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham were channeled?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:30 pm 
God

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:25 pm
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A commenter asked for clarification:
Quote:
ScottandCindy• 2h •

Brother Givens, simply put, is this what you believed happened? Joseph purchased the papyrus. He fumbled through them without much/any education on Egyptology. The Lord opened his mind to a wonderful revelation about Abraham. Joseph recorded it. The recording is indeed a historically correct history of the Bible prophet Abraham. Abraham really wrote a book, but Joseph did not have that book nor a copy of it. Joseph incorrectly assumed and taught that the revelation he received was a translation from the papyrus in his possession. Do I have it right? Thanks.


Terryl_Givens • 2h •

I believe that is about as close to the facts as we will get


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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham were channeled?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:32 pm 
God

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And another comment re the Book of Mormon process:
Quote:
apanesepianotrying to be 100% honest and fair • 16m •

The Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham translation process seem very similar from my perspective.

1) One source was from Egyptian, the other Reformed Egyptian.

2) Each character was translated into a phrase up to 1/2 paragraph in length.

3) Seer stones were involved in the Book of Mormon translation, and may have been involved in the Book of Abraham translation.

4) Joseph's mother said that he could translate the characters which were missing in the papyri just as well as those which were present. In the case of the Book of Mormon, the plates weren't physically present, but this did not hamper the translation process.

Given the many similarities, are there any significant differences between the two translations, or can we regard them as similar/the same?


Terryl_Givens • 3m •

Both processes have many missing details. And there are significant differences. The BofM was largely a solitary process, and relied entirely on seership. The BofA process involved (amateur) academic work, an attempt to construct a grammar and alphabet.

Joseph Smith repeatedly referred to the BofM translation as being "by the gift and power of God," and he considered it one of the three branches of his calling. And he declared the completed project "the most perfect book" and keystone of Mormonism.

He made no comparable claims re the BofA. It was ongoing and never finished. He never claimed prophetic authority for its production. He never in any way insinuated it was a work comparable to the BofM.

I'm not sure how much to make of that, but it seems highly significant to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Terryl Givens Reddit AMA- Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham were channeled?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:39 pm 
God

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And a third explanation that segues into his channeling statement, but it seems to disagree slightly with the other two I posted above, so I don’t know what to make of that:
Quote:
pierian_spring• 4h •

When it comes to the book of Abraham, It seems to me that the best case scenario for Joseph is that he is an unreliable narrator: the texts are not what he claims them to be, but perhaps he was inspired in a way he didn't fully understand.

In your view, what are some faithful yet intellectually honest ways to interpret Joseph's actions and claims with regard to the book of Abraham in light of the difficult historical facts?



Terryl_Givens • 4h •

I think you are precisely correct--with the proviso that he sincerely thought them to be what he claimed, and sincerely believed he was deciphering their meaning directly. (And may have been, if he was working from a scroll now longer extant).

I find that scenario comports with the evidence, and with what we know of Joseph Smith's character. He was much like Peter. He was impetuous, impulsive, excitable. I love his aggressive, intellectually adventurous mind, and think a key to his nature and process was his lament that he "did not have the same right vouchsafed to every other American to speak his mind freely, but there was always someone taking notes and imputing prophetic authority to his words."(paraphrase).

He loved to speculate, and spoke and acted at times rather imprudently. What bigger than life characters in the scriptures did not? It doesn't bother me that he turns out to have been channeling rather than translating-- esp. given the fact that that is how we got the BofM.



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