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 Post subject: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into BofM
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:44 pm 
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https://www.reddit.com/r/Mormon/comment ... testament/

Now THIS is fascinating! Skillfully wove the biblical texts throughout the Book of Mormon?! Not just the large chunks of Isaiah, but in many areas of the Book of Mormon we have biblical materials. The discussion here is awesome, even though its just started. This changes a LOT of apologetic explanation through the years.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:23 pm 
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Skillfully woven :lol: :lol: :lol:

A magical phrase that allows one to admit that the BofM is essentially plagarized, while derailing discussion down the rabbit hole of how the BofM was produced, i.e. nobody saw him anywhere near a Bible during those fateful days of "translation". How did he pull off this magic trick in the view of so many wise and impeccable witnesses?

Yes, but the BofM is essentially a ripoff of the Bible.

Skillfully woven my ass.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:30 pm 
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It is awe inspiring to me, every time I begin to dig into the many verse fragments and key phrases of the KJV that appear in the Book of Mormon. It’s a work of fine art, worthy of praise, whether one believes the literal non fiction, divine fiction, or pious fraud theory of its production.

Then consider the skillful weaving of Biblical content alongside the vast amount of contemporary 19th century material - themes, sermons, hymns, doctrinal debates, contemporary Indian origin myths. Rational analysis of the fact base does lead to a legitimate “genius” explanation that is simultaneously impossible to prove, impossible to disprove, and impossible to ignore.

People who say “Joseph couldn’t have written it” must deliberately overlook the data from known human history:
(a) geniuses do exist, and in fact are not extremely uncommon - they walk among us, in all walks of life
(b) their gifts vary widely, as do their interests and passions - chess, math, art, writing, spirituality, science, sports, etc etc etc
(c) they are frequently born into otherwise unremarkable families - no correlation is yet found to predict genius from DNA
(d) there are clues from Joseph’s history suggesting unique abilities and yes, even brilliance, in addition to his unique background driving keen interest in foundational themes of the restoration and of the Book of Mormon, from a young age
(e) all of what Joseph produced and accomplished can be explained as a self-selecting outcome for the right kind of religiously motivated genius. At least as easily explained as the current LDS prophetic narrative, complete with all of its messy ins and outs.


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:36 pm 
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Ya'll have it all wrong. There was a ghost committee, perhaps on Mars or perhaps Kolob, but this ghost committee inspired a 15th century author (maybe Tyndale?) to use the bible to create the bofm in the old EmodE language. It must be so because some EmodE was found in the book after an intense session of staring into the sun by Skousen and Stanford Carmack. Robert Smith knows and it's glorious to his eyes.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:44 pm 
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:lol: Yes, Joseph Smith was a genius-level scam artist, a brilliant con-man, and extraordinarily gifted at duping his fellow humans, especially when it came to sexually harassing women and getting away with it, to the deep chagrin of his wife. What a set of skills to admire!
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The Dude:


Skillfully woven :lol: :lol: :lol:

A magical phrase that allows one to admit that the BofM is essentially plagarized....

Skillfully woven my ass.

Exactly.


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:52 am 
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I would bet my "first born" that Smith handed OC the Bible and told OC to copy Isaiah down on the manuscript paper.
Joesph to OC: "i need a sex break, copy those chapters of Isaiah that i marked with the yellow post-its and i will see you in a couple of days".

better explanations??

k


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:58 am 
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Exiled wrote:
Ya'll have it all wrong. There was a ghost committee, perhaps on Mars or perhaps Kolob, but this ghost committee inspired a 15th century author (maybe Tyndale?) to use the bible to create the bofm in the old EmodE .


This is actually what Clark Goble insinuated when we had a little back and forth, although it wasn't really directed at me; it was more or less him musing. It was astonishing.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:04 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Exiled wrote:
Ya'll have it all wrong. There was a ghost committee, perhaps on Mars or perhaps Kolob, but this ghost committee inspired a 15th century author (maybe Tyndale?) to use the bible to create the bofm in the old EmodE .


This is actually what Clark Goble insinuated when we had a little back and forth, although it wasn't really directed at me; it was more or less him musing. It was astonishing.

- Doc


Really? In my exchanges with him over at MD&D he took a stance against the EmodE theory. Or at least he provided some pushback. He and Physics Guy wondered if the EmodE allegedly found wasn't simply part of Joseph Smith's backwoods dialect. Clark thought perhaps legal transcripts from the New York area at the time would also contain the same archaic structures that Carmack was so excited about. Not surprisingly, Carmack wasn't too enthusiastic about doing the research Clark suggested.

Here is an exchange between Clark and Physic's Guy I just found:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/71061-skousen-carmack-lecture-take-aways/page/8/?tab=comments#comment-1209865225

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:07 am 
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The argument that Joseph Smith didn't have a Bible in front of him during the creation process of the Book of Mormon because there is no contemporary accounts of one being there is DOA.

We have no accounts of Joseph Smith having Clarke's Commentary in front of him when he 'revised' the Bible to create the JST but we know he did.

It would not surprise me that the "skillful weaving" of the Bible in the Book of Mormon turns out to be more Clarke's Commentary plagiarism also.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:46 am 
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One man's skillful weaving is another man's stupid blunder.

When Joseph placed quotes from the long ending of Mark (certainly a late scribal addition), was that skillful weaving or a stupid blunder?

I'm going with "stupid blunder."

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:16 am 
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Is the Book of Mormon really so impressive as a text, independent of however it may have gotten composed? I admit that I haven't read all that much of it but this is because every attempt turned me off. The language struck me strongly as phony from the beginning and the content was repulsive, with God personally telling Nephi to decapitate a drunk guy over some genealogical records. Somebody told me that the appearance of Jesus in 3 Nephi was a great highlight and it was appalling.

I have read more than those bits, but only scattered patches. I'm afraid this random sampling has failed to turn up any things that impressed me. At this point I don't see all that much skill on Smith's part. Have I really just been unlucky? If so, what's the best thing I've missed?


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:37 am 
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Physics Guy wrote:
Is the Book of Mormon really so impressive as a text, independent of however it may have gotten composed? I admit that I haven't read all that much of it but this is because every attempt turned me off. The language struck me strongly as phony from the beginning and the content was repulsive, with God personally telling Nephi to decapitate a drunk guy over some genealogical records. Somebody told me that the appearance of Jesus in 3 Nephi was a great highlight and it was appalling.

I have read more than those bits, but only scattered patches. I'm afraid this random sampling has failed to turn up any things that impressed me. At this point I don't see all that much skill on Smith's part. Have I really just been unlucky? If so, what's the best thing I've missed?


The Jaredite barges, you definitely have missed the best part, the Jaredite barges in the book called Ether. DrW has bore fervent testimony of its reliability and actual scientific realism more times than I can count. :wink: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:24 am 
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The Jaredite barges were the one thing that rang a bell for me when I started getting interested in Mormonism a few years ago. I realized that the story of the Jaredites was the weird thing that I had seen in a sort of comic book leaflet, in a doctor's office or something, many years before, as a kid. At the time I remember thinking that it looked kind of like a Bible story—we got comic style leaflets like that in Sunday school—except I already knew there were no voyages to the Americas in the Bible. It seemed like nonsense even then but it was in a doctor's waiting room and I had an idea that doctors were supposed to put out good educational stuff for their patients. So the thing stuck in my mind for decades as a mystery. It was quite satisfying to resolve what that old comic had been.

In my memory the barges were drawn as squat wooden cylinders like massive dim sum boxes. Cool as round floating forts but it was hard to see how they were supposed to get anywhere.


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:49 pm 
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I like how liahona is "interpreted" into a word for which their language could not have - compass, as compasses had not been invented.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:52 pm 
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I like how liahona is "interpreted" into a word for which their language could not have - compass, as compasses had not been invented.
Alma 37:38
And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the thing which our fathers call a ball, or director-or our fathers called it Liahona, which is, being interpreted, a compass; and the Lord prepared it.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:27 pm 
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When was the compass invented? It appears term is anachronistic, based on the fact this is an internal dialogue between Book of Mormon characters, hundreds of years BC, interpreting the meaning of Liahona as a compass.

Prior to its invention, was it all done with stars and geographical objects?


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:41 pm 
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The compass as a pointing/directional device was invented around 200 bc in China.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:46 pm 
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SteelHead wrote:
The compass as a pointing/directional device was invented around 200 bc in China.

And Alma 37 took place in 74BC, plenty of time for the Chinese to tell the white Native American Alma all about it. Checkmate, atheists!

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:55 pm 
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Double checkmate.

It was the Chinese who merged populations with the Lamanites, and brought compass technology with them.

DNA theories resolved.
Compass anachronism solved.


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Scholar says J S "Skillfully wove" Bible texts into
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:58 pm 
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Dr Moore wrote:
Double checkmate.

It was the Chinese who merged populations with the Lamanites, and brought compass technology with them.

DNA theories resolved.
Compass anachronism solved.


Oh, boy. You like fanfiction. Do I have a treat for you!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13858

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