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 Post subject: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:18 pm 
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The Bomb!

:surprised:

Radio Free Mormon: 85: Elder Snow Goes Rogue

WHY THE CHURCH PRODUCED THE ESSAYS:

Elder Snow wrote:
The brethren felt it was really time where we really needed a safe place for members to go to learn about some of these chapters or incidences in our history that had caused some questions or concerns

A safe place? This seems to imply that the only safe place on the Internet to learn about these things would have to be on the church website. This "safe place" with its biased essays are supposed to provide comprehensive answers to the questions? How hardly!

The church essays don't really provide answers to the questions that are most disturbing, rather they provide an array of new questions one may pick and choose to answer the original questions. It's answering questions with more questions, thus, leaving everything open ended.

One walks into the essays only to walk out with more questions which leaves a person with only one choice: Search the Internet for more answers because you won't get them from the church, not now, not in the past, and not ever!

We just don't know enough about it.

We don't know. We don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:07 pm 
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So glad you liked it, Shulem!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:50 pm 
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Great podcast Consig! Your voice have lifted me up many a times, on my way to or from work.

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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:21 am 
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In relation to Church history, the best scholarship, the most educated and best read scholars, are outside of Church employment...did I hear that correctly?

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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:25 am 
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The final 15 minutes of the podcast (1:25) drops a bomb wherein elder Snow directly contradicts President Nelsatan on the LGBT exclusion policy of 2015 which was reversed just 3 years later. Snow is out of step with apostolic testimony and Spirit confirmation given by President NelSatan who at the time was President of the Twelve. In an interview with Peggy Fletcher Stack who asked how he felt about the reversal of the policy he responds:

Elder Snow wrote:
I'm very, very happy with the reversal (laugh). :lol:


When asked about what he thought about the policy when it came out he said:

Elder Snow wrote:
I was very disappointed.

I have a lot of friends and acquaintances and it just seemed (pause) uugh, it didn't seem well thought out, (stutter) it was an amendment to the handbook, why would we lead with we don't bless the children of, (pause & stutter), of gay and lesbian parents, it just did not make sense to me it was hard for me, ugh, I'm very, very glad they reversed it.


:surprised:

Wow. Just wow.

Nevertheless, I commend elder Snow for his position and his confession. But it does show that he is out of step with the brethren and out of harmony with the Spirit.

:wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:51 am 
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Radio Free Mormon 1:40 wrote:
The highest form of worshipping God in the LDS church is when we follow the leaders of the church even when it does not comport with the dictates of our own conscience, even when it contradicts the dictates of our own conscience, following the leaders of the church regardless of the fact of what they say and teach violates the dictates of our conscience is the highest form of worship.


:eek:

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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:04 am 
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Regarding Elder Snow's comments that they hired outside historians so that they would have the best and most current research from the best historians for writing the gospel topics essays, I call BS (at least partially).

In this case the LDS church is just showing itself to be what it is: a huge corporation operating under the same unwritten rules all US corporations operate under. Anyone who has worked for big companies knows this song and dance. When something controversial or risky has to be done, it is usually not done by people working for the corporation, it is usually farmed out to consultants and consulting firms. Why?

  • It provides plausible deniability if the project goes bad. You just blame the consultants if you don't get the product you want.
  • It allows upper management to take all of the praise if things go right. The consulting company won't be invited to the meetings where praise is given (they know this is part of the game too). None of the rank and file are involved and can't share any of the praise. Thus upper management is free to claim all of the praise and merit because nobody else can or will.
  • It costs a lot of money to hire these consultants. If this seems like a downside, you don't know how upper management thinks. Power in upper management is mostly tied to the size of one's spending. If you spend more, you have more power. Hiring consultants is a great way to boost your spending, hence your power and perceived importance.
  • Upper management does not have to treat rank and file equals nor to share any power with them. In management power is meant to be used, not shared. In modern knowledge based corporations, this is a real problem for upper management. They manage knowledge, but usually don't have a single clue about the knowledge nor how it is used or produced.

I think all of these apply here. The non-church paid historians (read consultants) gave upper management the deniability they needed. They could fire them at any time with no repercussions. The apostles could continue to take all of the praise, no church historians would need to be acknowledged. I'm sure the church historians were fine seeing their budgets include pricey line items for outside historians. While it's probably nowhere near as expensive as hiring management, accounting, or IT consultants I'm guessing they did command a higher wage than do the on staff historians. Note, I may be wrong on this one, I'm just guessing.

Finally, the apostles didn't have to share power with the rank and file historians. The last thing they want is for historians to get all uppity and think they have some sort of influence or power they can wield. I also think this accounts for the why Snow threw them under the bus by saying they hired outside because they wanted the best. There are ways of hiring outside people without throwing your own people under the bus. Usually the line is something like, "Our people are just so busy doing other important projects that we had to hire outside consultants to get this important project done."

In summary:
  • The LDS church behave just like any other US corporation.
  • LDS apostles behave just like upper management at any US corporation
  • The historians working for the LDS church are probably just as competent as other historians, but it is convenient to throw them under the bus.

There is one benefit the historians received: they all kept their jobs. Had they written the essays, they would have been marked men and women. They would be the ones who had unacceptable ideas about the Book of Abraham, polyandry, and teenage brides. To put it in Shades' terms, they would be expressing Internet Mormon ideas in a Chapel Mormon context, which is always a dangerous thing to do. Even Internet Mormons know when they are supposed to pretend to be Chapel Mormons.


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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:30 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:41 pm 
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With regards to the 2015 church policy on LGBT kids:

Elder Steven E Snow
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wrote:

It didn't seem well thought out


As opposed to:

President Russell M. NelSatan of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
wrote:

We considered countless permutations and combinations of possible scenarios that could arise

President Nelson Explains Origins of the Handbook Change

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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:48 pm 
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With regards to the 2015 church policy on LGBT kids:

Elder Steven E Snow
Image
wrote:

Why would we lead with we don't bless the children of gay and lesbian parents, it just did not make sense to me


As opposed to:

President Russell M. NelSatan of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
wrote:

We met repeatedly in the temple in fasting and prayer and sought further direction and inspiration.

And then, when the Lord inspired His prophet, President Thomas S. Monson, to declare the mind of the Lord and the will of the Lord, each of us during that sacred moment felt a spiritual confirmation. It was our privilege as Apostles to sustain what had been revealed to President Monson. Revelation from the Lord to His servants is a sacred process. And so is your privilege of receiving personal revelation.

President Nelson Explains Origins of the Handbook Change

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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:52 pm 
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Elder Steven E Snow
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wrote:

Oops!

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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:49 pm 
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President NelSatan wrote:
We met repeatedly in the temple in fasting and prayer and sought further direction and inspiration.


You need to tell elder Snow about that because I don't think he knows.

President NelSatan wrote:
And then, when the Lord inspired His prophet, President Thomas S. Monson


You mean Dallan Oaks shoved a pen in his face and practically forced him to sign the paper. Yeah, right.

President NelSatan wrote:
to declare the mind of the Lord and the will of the Lord, each of us during that sacred moment felt a spiritual confirmation.


Yeah and the Lord is going to change his mind in just 3 years so you better get ready for another spiritual confirmation because this one won't last long.

President NelSatan wrote:
It was our privilege as Apostles to sustain what had been revealed to President Monson.


You mean what Dallan Oaks forced him to sign. Nothing was revealed other than you guys taking over.

President NelSatan wrote:
Revelation from the Lord to His servants is a sacred process. And so is your privilege of receiving personal revelation.


Well, it sure seems that elder Snow didn't get the personal revelation and that this sacred process skipped over him. What are you going to do to fix that, NelSatan?

:twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:36 pm 
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RFM as always you've done a "professional" job of nailing down the spoken and unspoken problems in Elder Snow's statements. But you were also fair in giving him credit where he deserved it. I give both Elder Snow and his predecessor Elder Jensen credit for at least stepping down from their pedestals to speak with "outside" interviewers.

Listening to them I have found myself almost squirming in discomfort on their behalf as they've tried to put lipstick on a pig. They act like they don't really believe what they're forced to say because of their positions.

Remember when the gas tanks of the old Ford Pinto tended to explode in flames when struck from behind? The Ford spokesmen were forced to face the public and put the best face on it. They looked like a deer caught in the headlights. Snow and Jensen seem the same. Poor guys.

Everything the Church is doing to catch up with the internet is making it look more inept, bumbling, and guilty. I don't see how it can be sustained in the long run.


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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:39 pm 
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One more thing...

Care to wager how Oaks and Snow would have responded to the same questions about the Priesthood Ban and the 2015 policy if both were still in place?

Thought so... :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:41 pm 
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One more thing...

Care to wager how Oaks and Snow would have responded to the same questions about the Priesthood Ban and the 2015 policy if both were still in place?

Thought so... :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:47 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Well, it sure seems that elder Snow didn't get the personal revelation and that this sacred process skipped over him. What are you going to do to fix that, NelSatan?

:twisted:


Shulem,

You are a wicked man and the discussion board you participate in is born out of the pits of hell. Nevertheless, I'll answer your question because elder Snow deserves an answer and it must needs be that he be chastened for his error and moreover for not representing the church in its true light. I'll tell you the same thing I told the young adults at a worldwide devotional held in Hawaii and let elder Snow take notice:

Quote:
You may not always understand every declaration of a living prophet, but when you know a prophet is a prophet, you can approach the Lord in humility and faith and ask for your own witness about whatever His prophet has proclaimed.

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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:45 pm 
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Quote:
Radio Free Mormon 1:40 wrote:
The highest form of worshipping God in the LDS church is when we follow the leaders of the church even when it does not comport with the dictates of our own conscience, even when it contradicts the dictates of our own conscience, following the leaders of the church regardless of the fact of what they say and teach violates the dictates of our conscience is the highest form of worship.


I never, ever, in my life imagined I would get to a point to where I say what I am about to say. Had you told me I would say this with conviction just even 4 years ago, I would have been completely unsympathetic to you claiming this. If it had been prophesied I would say this I would have called you a false prophet, and I would have said so in the name of the Lord.

If Mormonism has really taught what is quoted above then Mormonism is a cult. My conscience, based on Mormon doctrine itself is that I am an eternal intelligence. NOTE the word INTELLIGENCE, meaning able to discriminate true from false, meaning able to learn, think, study, weigh evidence, and everything else intelligence implies. It means make choices based on actual and real KNOWLEDGE gained. It means having capability to discern, grasp, and understand, to become enlightened, to test and find false from true, fake from actual. To go AGAINST that based on what someone else says, deliberately turning off my critical thinking is immoral. It is dividing myself against myself. It is stupid. I have literally NO REASON to forego my own conscience since it is immortal and has existed in eternity, meaning it already has an eternity of knowledge, capability, and subconscious as well as conscious knowledge of what to do in any given circumstance. There is literally no reason for personal treason like is being asked. It makes no sense, it contradicts what everyone of us actually are in reality, and it is an insult to presume I don't know as well as what someone else tells me and I should simply stop using my critical faculties to simply follow someone else's claims without nary a word or thought of difference.
I will say in as gentle a way as possible, assuming the Mormon doctrine of ETERNAL intelligence that I am to the aforesaid above saying GO TO HELL. And I assure you this IS gentle compared to what they have to hear from all peoples, races, and conscience sentient beings who values personal freedom, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, justice, and being at peace with your own conscience. I submit my will to GOD ALONE. Your doctrine be damned. Here I stand on my own personal knowledge, love and faith in God. I need no organization to stand between me and my maker imagining that obeying them is equivalent to obeying God. I will let God him/herself tell me otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:46 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
A safe place? This seems to imply that the only safe place on the Internet to learn about these things would have to be on the church website. This "safe place" with its biased essays are supposed to provide comprehensive answers to the questions? How hardly!

Would you rather members go to FAIRMormon for their Snow job? Better to get partial answers than polished disinformation.

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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:25 pm 
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moksha wrote:
Shulem wrote:
A safe place? This seems to imply that the only safe place on the Internet to learn about these things would have to be on the church website. This "safe place" with its biased essays are supposed to provide comprehensive answers to the questions? How hardly!

Would you rather members go to FAIRMormon for their Snow job? Better to get partial answers than polished disinformation.


Okay, that was funny. I actually laughed!

Stupid ____ FAIR Mormon!

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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:09 pm 
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This is absolutely a complete WIPE OUT!!!!!!! RFM destroys the Mormon excuses and hedging!!!!! PHE-NOM-IN-AL!!!!!! Holy scathing cats, reality is just beating the living ____ out of the Mormon leaders. No wonder so many are leaving!

Good God the Mormon leaders liars haven't got a chance. And they continue trying to fudge right now in 2019 and RFM nails them to the wall with spikes, not mere 20 penny nails. Best podcast yet. Mormonism is the Church of lies, which is so very unfortunate. But, after all, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are SOOOOOOOOOOO F**KING EMBARRASSING..........

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: Radio Free Mormon: Elder Snow Goes Rogue!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:34 pm 
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I have a question wrote:
In relation to Church history, the best scholarship, the most educated and best read scholars, are outside of Church employment...did I hear that correctly?

Yes.....good holy gawd, he outright said they wanted the smartest and best, so they hired outside the church, actual historians to write their own historical essays for them!!!!!!!! And this is the head of the Church History department.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
What a slap to the church historians and apologists........it cannot, it literally CANNOT get any worse of an insult than that to the very people the church hires.

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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