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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:34 pm 
Son of Perdition
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Love this:

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But all of this hoopla about the length of the scroll doesn’t really matter in the end. It is a red herring. The Facsimiles alone are enough to tell us all we need to know.


I've been saying this all along. This coupled with Anubis's missing snout is going to prove the death of the Book of Abraham!

It's very important that we bear in mind that Joseph Smith considered the Facsimiles to be part of the Book of Abraham -- revelations and translations. In fact, it could be argued that the Explanations of Facsimile No. 2 were considered to be Joseph's finest translations -- more important than the story contained in the chapters of text. Apologists have long tried to water down the importance of the Facsimile Explanations and focus on the story contained in the chapters. They do this because they know they can't defend the Explanations.

I assert that Joseph Smith considered the Explanations of Facsimile No. 2 to be his finest hour as a translator and the most important element of the entire Book of Abraham. Apologists be damned for the ____ liars they are. President NelSatan is a ____ liar and I wish the bastard would drop dead.

:twisted:

(No alcohol tonight, Shades, so THERE!!)

:evil:

What you see is what you ____ get!

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THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3
Includes a startling new discovery!

Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:47 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Edit: I’m had brain fart. That part of the original scroll is missing, no?

You're thinking of the original scroll that contained Facsimile #1. The one featuring the snout removal was Facsimile #3.

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That’s what I’m saying, though. The original vignette was based on the scroll which is missing Anubis’ head, no?

Yes, but only regarding Facsimile #1, the Abraham on the altar scene.

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How did the the guy who created the lead printing plate, the one you pointed out where Anubis’ snout was chiseled off, know to originally include a snout?

Because Facsimile #3, the Abraham in Pharaoh's court scene, wasn't missing that part.

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I’m saying if he knew about the snout, then the scroll had Anubis in tact, and it follows if Joseph Smith had the maker remove the snout Joseph Smith would’ve removed the incriminating piece on the scroll where Anubis’ head should’ve been.

That's entirely possible, but only regarding the part of the scroll which contained Facsimile #3, since we have the part containing Facsimile #1 and know for a fact that it's missing Anubis's head.

As for what happened to the papyrus containing Facsimile #3, it's anyone's guess, as Shulem explained earlier.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:12 am 
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Thanks, guys. The Book of Abraham has always been a sort of jumbled mess to me, and I appreciate the efforts to succinctly explain the basics of the scroll in relation to the Book of Abraham as its printed in the canon.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:56 am 
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Shulem wrote:

. You'd think that the original vignettes of Facsimiles 1 & 3 would have remained together seeing they were from the same roll, Book of Abraham. But they got separated somehow and the original Facsimile No. 3 didn't survive.



Remember that the Hor scroll and the Ta-Shert-Min scroll had been cut into sections and placed under glass in boxes to preserve them. So getting separated later on was not that big of a deal since they were already in sections. Two weeks after Lucy's death (they were a source of income to Lucy but evidently not very important to Emma) Emma sold "four Egyptian mummies with the records with them" to Abel Combs who then sold two of the mummies and some of the papyri to the St Louis museum. That is probably when facsimile #3 and the missing 24" of the Hor scroll got separated from what we have left of it right now. Combs nor the buyer could read Egyptian and probably had no idea or even cared which segments were originally part of which scrolls.

When the St Louis museum closed, the part of the Joseph Smith Egyptian artifacts it owned were purchased by James Woods and in about 1863 made their way to the Chicago museum where they are believed to have been destroyed in the Great Chicago fire of 1871.

Combs kept two of the mummies and all of the extant papyri the church owns today. Whether or not he kept more is unknown. The fate of the mummies is unknown but the papyri passed down to Combs nurse, Charlotte Benecke Weaver who in turn gave them to her daughter Alice Heusser, whose husband sold them to the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art in 1947. The Museum kept them until 1967 at which time it decided to sell them to raise money. The LDS church arraigned for an anonymous donation to the museum in return for the 11 segments.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:27 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Two weeks after Lucy's death (they were a source of income to Lucy but evidently not very important to Emma) Emma sold "four Egyptian mummies with the records with them" to Abel Combs


Right, it seems that Emma wasn't concerned with preserving the original handiwork of one of the most important people in all of holy writ, Abraham. Emma only cared about her immediate financial needs and willingly dumped Abraham's personal writings down the rabbit hole.

Recall you said in another thread:

Fence Sitter wrote:
Another interesting side story regarding the relics. They remained in the custody of Lucy Smith after her son's death. She would show them to curious visitors for .25 cents for the rest of her life. Within two weeks of Lucy's death, Emma and her current husband sold them off. I guess Emma wasn't all that impressed with how important those mummies and documents were for other Mormons.


Nope, Emma didn't give a rat's ass about the so-called authenticity of the papyrus and what it meant to have an actual autograph of Abraham and his story written in his own hand. All she cared about was where she was going to get the money for her next dress. What a ____. She remarried just three years after Joseph's death and did so on Joseph's birthday! She sure had the last laugh. What a ____!

:lol:

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THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3
Includes a startling new discovery!

Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:39 am 
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Shulem wrote:
Nope, Emma didn't give a rat's ass about the so-called authenticity of the papyrus and what it meant to have an actual autograph of Abraham and his story written in his own hand. All she cared about was where she was going to get the money for her next dress. What a ____. She remarried just three years after Joseph's death and did so on Joseph's birthday! She sure had the last laugh. What a ____!

:lol:

I think this is looking at it from the wrong perspective... I personally think this just goes to show that Emma knew the papyrus had *nothing* to do with Abraham or ancient Biblical writings.

If Emma truly believed the papyrus said what Joseph claimed it did, I don't believe she would've dumped them at the first chance she had.

I have no idea what she truly believed overall about Joseph and Mormonism, but I am pretty sure that this tells you what she thought about the authenticity of the Book of Abraham.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:39 am 
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jfro18 wrote:

I have no idea what she truly believed overall about Joseph and Mormonism, but I am pretty sure that this tells you what she thought about the authenticity of the Book of Abraham.


I think she saw Mormonism as a means to support her family and elevate her stature in the community. Mormonism was a means to an end for her.

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What Jane Manning did say: "I am white except for the color of my skin."


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:47 am 
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jfro18 wrote:
I think this is looking at it from the wrong perspective... I personally think this just goes to show that Emma knew the papyrus had *nothing* to do with Abraham or ancient Biblical writings.

If Emma truly believed the papyrus said what Joseph claimed it did, I don't believe she would've dumped them at the first chance she had.

I have no idea what she truly believed overall about Joseph and Mormonism, but I am pretty sure that this tells you what she thought about the authenticity of the Book of Abraham.


I agree. I don't think for a minute that Emma believed Joseph Smith translated the Egyptian papyrus. I think she knew the whole thing was a hoax and just kept her mouth shut and went along with it. She knew Joseph better than anyone which means she knew he was nothing but a liar and a conman. Just so long as she gets a new dress and hat on a regular basis she was okay with it all.

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Includes a startling new discovery!

Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:18 am 
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Hey guys,

I'm the guy who wrote that annotation of the essay.

It occurred to me that when the day comes that a local leader, friend, or neighbor calls me on the carpet for my disbelief it would be handy to have my notes embedded in an official church document that responds directly to the manipulative and less-than-completely-honest way the church often "answers" questions. Of course the confrontation I was anticipating never happened because nobody actually wants to know about this stuff.

Thanks to those of you out there who have done important leg work on this topic. I'm glad to be in the presence of Shulem, if you are the guy who discovered the Anubis desnouting. About 10 years ago the church put the papyri and plates on display for one day and it was really a treat to see them face-to-face. I wish I had known about nose job then so I could have observed it directly.

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“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” - Mark Twain


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:06 am 
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Hagoth wrote:
Thanks to those of you out there who have done important leg work on this topic. I'm glad to be in the presence of Shulem, if you are the guy who discovered the Anubis desnouting. About 10 years ago the church put the papyri and plates on display for one day and it was really a treat to see them face-to-face. I wish I had known about nose job then so I could have observed it directly.


Thanks for the compliment! I like compliments. :smile:

Yep, I was the guy that discovered the missing snout on the plate. That's not saying that someone else might not have noticed it prior to me but I'm the first person to have noticed it and make it public.

Please tell us more about the essay annotation. That sounds interesting. The essay is a weak and flimsy apologetic piece of trash put out by the church. All the "what ifs" and "could bes" are clear indicators that the church has no answers but only more questions to add to questions already remaining. The church is talking out of both sides of its mouth when it allows for both the missing roll theory and the catalyst theory to be viable options. It can't have both. But clearly we see the church is playing both sides of the fence. The church is run by cowards who are professional liars in every regard. The leaders of the church are trained to lie and have lived lies to such an extent that they even believe the lies they tell themselves. You know it's bad when you can talk yourself into your own lie. This is the kind of people that are running the church, habitual liars with tongues crafted in deceit.

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THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3
Includes a startling new discovery!

Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Church Blunders In Book of Abraham Official Essay
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:19 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Hagoth wrote:
Please tell us more about the essay annotation. That sounds interesting. The essay is a weak and flimsy apologetic piece of trash put out by the church. All the "what ifs" and "could bes" are clear indicators that the church has no answers but only more questions to add to questions already remaining. The church is talking out of both sides of its mouth when it allows for both the missing roll theory and the catalyst theory to be viable options. It can't have both. But clearly we see the church is playing both sides of the fence. The church is run by cowards who are professional liars in every regard. The leaders of the church are trained to lie and have lived lies to such an extent that they even believe the lies they tell themselves. You know it's bad when you can talk yourself into your own lie. This is the kind of people that are running the church, habitual liars with tongues crafted in deceit.

Well, that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

I always loved the Book of Abraham. I had so much respect for it I was even able to resist coloring the pictures when I was a kid. I used to sit in church and read the facsimile translations and think, oh boy, it says here that I'm going to get to learn this ancient secret when I go to the temple! I was so excited to buy Nibley's translation when it came out but then so perplexed by the absence of the Book of Abraham in that text. What the hell?

The ground started slipping out from under me about as quickly as I could shore it up with apologetics coming out of FARMS, but that just opened me up to all of the other problems. At some point I realized that I had walked all the way through the forest of apologetics and came out the other side with the realization that it had all been a smoke screen.

I could console myself with the thought that, although I found a lot of what the apologists were doing abhorrent, there was still a chance that inspired leaders might be able to give some reasonable answers. But when the official essay came out it made it very clear that the leaders had nothing. They were so clueless that they either didn't understand how bad the apologetics were or they were complicit. But what really riled me was exactly what you pointed out. These essays are multiple choice questions. They throw a lot of mutually exclusive "answers" at you as if they were really answers and they leave it up to you to pick the one that works best for you.

They don't care what's true, just as long as they keep you on the hook.

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“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” - Mark Twain


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