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 Post subject: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:04 am 
God

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Recently the Church strengthened it's statement on the carrying of guns whilst in Chapels and Church buildings. The policy now reads:
Quote:
With the exception of current law enforcement officers, the carrying of lethal weapons on church property, concealed or otherwise, is prohibited.

https://kutv.com/news/local/church-of-j ... gun-policy

Further, the Church has made the necessary public statement:
Quote:
Even with a carry permit, carrying a concealed firearm is not allowed in any church that notifies the State of Utah and makes public notice. A church must, by state law, make annual notice of this intent to prohibit firearms from their "houses of worship". The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints prohibits the carrying of firearms in its "houses of worship"; they have current notice posted on the Utah Department of Public Safety's website.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Utah

My question is this - if a member in the state of Utah continues to carry a weapon to Church (which is contrary to legally-binding Church policy) will they be asked to leave the premises and be subjected to Church discipline?

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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:21 am 
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Here's one faithful Mormon's perspective on the new policy:

http://asoldiersperspective.com/lds-chu ... important/

Quote:
LDS Church Just Told Me That My Life is Unimportant

by CJ Grisham

I don’t talk much about my church. I’ve mentioned it when necessary on this site, but only to reiterate why I believe a certain way on certain things. I’ve never, that I can recall, written a post strictly related to my faith. I tend to keep that personal or to only discuss in person. However, I’m making an exception today because my church has made a policy decision that fundamentally changes how I will worship. This post is not being written to debate my Christianity or your opinions on my religion. I won’t debate whether you think the LDS Church is good or bad. I don’t care what you think about that. Any comments that attack my faith will not be approved, simple as that.

I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I joined this church on my 19th birthday after much contemplation, prayer, and study. Prior to my conversion, I was a Baptist. And a Presbyterian. And a Methodist. And a Lutheran. And a Catholic. I’ve been baptized in search of truth more than John the Baptist probably performed baptisms! It wasn’t until I began looking into the LDS church that I found what fit into my understanding and prayerful consideration of the Bible (again, this is MY understanding, not yours and I won’t debate that here).

One of the things I really liked about the church – aside from the doctrinal issues I agreed with – was that the church was a fairly conservative faith. We believed in defense of life. We valued the liberties enshrined in the Constitution. We believed in helping to better our communities. There was never a shortage of people to go shooting with. And, above all, I was allowed to defend myself should the need arise.

I’m not what people would probably consider a “model Mormon.” I’m rough around the edges. I was a hell-raiser prior to joining the church and that obviously never dissipated. I didn’t wear my religion on my sleeve by constantly seeking or seizing opportunities to talk about the Book of Mormon or church doctrine. For a brief time back in the AOL days, I did run a chat room called “Ask a Mormon.” Because I had done so much personal research before joining the church, I wanted to share that information with people who had legitimate questions about our beliefs. Other than that, I pretty much didn’t discuss religion in public except when necessary to explain why I didn’t do some things or did others (like drinking coffee or engaging in political activities on Sundays).

Unfortunately, my relationship with the church was drastically changed today.

LDS Church memo on guns in … by The Salt Lake Tribune on Scribd

It should be noted CJ Grisham is the founder of Open Carry Texas:

http://www.opencarrytexas.org/home-1.html

some Google links in case you're interested ref OCT's activities:

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GG ... CAo&uact=5

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:40 am 
1st Counselor

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I suspect the Church won't do anything other than ask the person to either leave or store the gun securely in their car. I doubt the Church would do anything beyond that.

My understanding is the real risk is is the potential loss of the concealed carry permit, assuming the issuing authority ever found out. I don't know Utah law, but typically a CCP comes with conditions, one of which is that you can't carry a concealed weapon in any place where it isn't permitted. So if that's the case with a CCP in Utah, then a refusal to abide by the Church's terms may also be a violation of at least one condition CCP condition.

I've always thoughts that gun rights was the one area where many believing Mormons won't "follow the prophet."


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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:20 am 
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Jesus's Apostles clearly carried swords for Self-Defense and Jesus clearly didn't have a problem with it.

The only exception is when they were taking Jesus and Peter cut one of the men's ear off, and Jesus said to stop it. But, that was only because that wasn't their and his "Mission". I.e., they were to preach the Gospel, and Jesus was supposed to die for man's sins, not War against the Man. Self-Defense is not entirely the same as waring against the man.

The Church is 100% wrong in this Intellectually. Morally, and Doctrinally. Bad guys don't follow rules, so the Church banning the innocent from having guns is tyranny, not the Gospel. Proof it doesn't work is that basically every "big" mass shooting has occurred in Gun Free Zones, and many shootings are stopped by good guys with a gun. Don't know why Church Leaders WANT more people to die... well, yes I do, Leftist propaganda. They don't know that:

1. At the lowest estimates, 200,000 lives are SAVED by guns every year in the U.S. In contrast, 10,000 Homicides occur by gun every year. I always wonder why people want to kill at least 190,000 people just so they can feel good about "maybe" saving 10,000 (which they actually wont because of the below)

2. Not a single place on the planet (save warzones) that have implemented gun bans/control have Reduced "Overall Death Rates". People who want to kill STILL kill. All gun bans do is kill, rape etc. the innocent, while the bad guys remain alive to do more harm. Even "gun death rates" don't generally go down, such as Austrailia, the favorite claim of the Left. It's gun deaths by Suicide and Homicide went down after the their ban at the EXACT rate it was going down for the prior 15 years.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:33 pm 
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Tsk! Tsk LDSFaqs........Dallin Oaks, your superior mentally, morally, and physically has told you it is wrong, always wrong to criticize the church even if the criticism is true. Now go thou and repent lest ye fall under the influence of the Satanic left and lose your celestial inheritance.....
Besides, no worries. The Mormons have something vastly superior to Uzi's. They have the Priesthood! They can stop a speeding bullet with a single flick of the sacred olive oil. All they have to do is lay hands on the bullet, and it will not penetrate innocents. No one can die in God's true church if that is the way he wants it. And if they do, all is well in Zion, God is simply testing the faith of his people, and bringing home those kids he missed the most. No worries, the Lord is at the Helm, have faith brethren. Everyone wearing their armor garments will be protected from physical harm. Don't you remember the temple?

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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:14 pm 
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Why would anyone want to attend a church meeting where any of it's members felt carrying a gun in a place of worship was a reasonable and necessary thing to do for self protection?

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Last edited by Fence Sitter on Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:18 pm 
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According to the Pew research center the number of Americans who died from gun-related injuries in 2017 (the most recent year for which statistics could be gathered) was just a couple hundred short of 40,000. Not 10,000. Only about 14,500 of the 40,000 were murders, however. The majority were suicides. Some were accidents or shootings by police.

The percentage of Americans who die annually from gun-related injuries is five to ten times higher than the percentages in other developed countries, all of which have much stricter gun control laws. According to Wikipedia the overall homicide rate in the US is also several times higher than in other developed countries, so it is not the case that other countries have the same amount of violence just using other weapons than guns.

And it is hard to see how guns could be saving 200,000 people per year in the US, since that implies something like 60 annual murders per 100,000 Americans being prevented each year, but countries with far fewer guns than the US have homicide rates around only 1 to 2 per 100,000 people per year. So if anything is preventing 60 homicides per 100,000 citizens per year in developed countries, whatever it is doesn't seem to be guns.

I don't believe in banning firearms but the widespread American fascination with guns is bizarre and disturbing to me, and so are the unreliable statistics and arguments invoked by ldsfaqs.


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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:19 pm 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
Jesus's Apostles clearly carried swords for Self-Defense and Jesus clearly didn't have a problem with it.


Jesus was leading a group of bandits in an attempt to topple Roman rule. He was attempting to form a new police state with himself appointed as king of the Jews. His disciples ran around with swords because they fully attended to attack others and usurp their authority by the point of the sword.

ldsfaqs wrote:
The only exception is when they were taking Jesus and Peter cut one of the men's ear off, and Jesus said to stop it.


Outlaw Jesus and his thugs were violent criminals. Had not Jesus stood down they would would have been killed and Jesus knew that. There wasn't any ear healed. There weren't any miracles! it's all a lie. Jesus was a conman.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:21 pm 
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For some LDS, it will be a tough choice between Russell M. Nelson and Wayne R. LaPierre.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:39 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Why would anyone want to attend a church meeting where any of it's members felt carrying a gun in a place of worship was a reasonable and necessary thing to do for self protection?


Well...

1. People believe in God and look to Him for guidance and protection in their lives.

2. They live in a Warzone, an extreme example, and STILL are believers per the above.

3. Bad guys can do harm "anywhere"... Some people simply believe in being prepared.
In case you don't know, many lives are SAVED out there in the real world by good guys with a gun.

Do you actually think it's better people die, than to be prepared?

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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:42 pm 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
Do you actually think it's better people die, than to be prepared?


You're telling me if you just partook of the sacrament, and then were killed you'd be upset about going to the Celestial kingdom?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:46 pm 
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Physics Guy wrote:
According to the Pew research center the number of Americans who died from gun-related injuries in 2017 (the most recent year for which statistics could be gathered) was just a couple hundred short of 40,000. Not 10,000. Only about 14,500 of the 40,000 were murders, however. The majority were suicides. Some were accidents or shootings by police.

The percentage of Americans who die annually from gun-related injuries is five to ten times higher than the percentages in other developed countries, all of which have much stricter gun control laws. According to Wikipedia the overall homicide rate in the US is also several times higher than in other developed countries, so it is not the case that other countries have the same amount of violence just using other weapons than guns.

And it is hard to see how guns could be saving 200,000 people per year in the US, since that implies something like 60 annual murders per 100,000 Americans being prevented each year, but countries with far fewer guns than the US have homicide rates around only 1 to 2 per 100,000 people per year. So if anything is preventing 60 homicides per 100,000 citizens per year in developed countries, whatever it is doesn't seem to be guns.

I don't believe in banning firearms but the widespread American fascination with guns is bizarre and disturbing to me, and so are the unreliable statistics and arguments invoked by ldsfaqs.


1. 10,000 refers to HOMICIDES, not "gun related injury's".

2. Yes, around 60% of gun deaths are Suicide.

3. Can you name a single country/city in which its "Overall Death Rates" have went down AFTER gun bans/gun control (save warzones)? Nope, you can't, because it doesn't exist. People who want to end peoples lives STILL do so. All gun bans do is cause innocent lives to end and bad guys to remain alive to do more harm.

Further, even the country's that are popular to Leftists to claim gun bans work, for example Australia and the UK, "gun deaths" don't even actually go down after their bans. For example, Australia after their gun ban their gun death rates for both homicide and suicide ONLY went down after the ban at the EXACT RATE those deaths were going down for the prior 15 years.

In other words, in Statistics that's called a non-correlation.
The gun ban didn't do anything to lower gun deaths.

4. The population of the UK is 60 Million.
The population of the US is 320 Million.
The UK has a Homicide Rate of 1.20
The US a Homicide Rate of 5.30
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... death_rate

Math states that the UK actually has a HIGHER Homicide Rate than the US. So, despite all the Guns in the US, the UK is actually a MORE dangerous place. And these are older #'s, the UK is even more dangerous now due to the influx of Muslims, so much so that London Leftists want to ban "Knives" due to the massive increase in deaths by Knives.

So, just because the UK may have a lower percentage of "gun deaths", so what, it's actual death rates by bad guys is higher.
I've already established that deaths don't go down after gun bans/control. That's a fact. Death is still death, whether it's with a gun or otherwise. Take the so-called evil "Assault Rifle". More lives are ended with blunt objects (hammers, hands/feet etc.) than are with ALL types of Rifles combined.

Why don't we have a blunt object ban?
Why don't we ban cars, they end more lives than guns for something that does nothing but provides a "convenience", they aren't a "necessity" to life. Guns in contrast actually SAVE LIVES... (though Ambulances etc. would be an exception with vehicles)

by the way, another problem with Homicide rates, most areas of the world, including the U.S. don't separate Murder from justifiable homicide, aka self-defense. The U.S. has a much higher self-defense usage with guns than most, thus our homicide rates aren't actually as high as people think.

5. The VAST majority of guns in the U.S. are owned by the least populated areas of the country, aka the majority Conservative areas. Guess what, those areas have the least amount of gun crimes/deaths, and crime in general. If you removed highly gun controlled Leftist cities, there would be very little gun crime in the US., because guess what, most gun crime is gang related, drugs, etc.

6. Great Britain, Ireland, and Jamaica, murder rates rose after guns were banned. Then you have many countries, such as Switzerland, Finland, New Zealand, and Israel, have high gun ownership rates and low crime rates, while many other countries have both low gun ownership rates and either high or low crime rates.

I could go on and on...
You can find some easy access info on guns here: http://www.gunfacts.info

I also recommend you start to study the actual GUN EXPERTS, both authors and those who deal with guns everyday, such as most in Law Enforcement, and Professional Gun Experts, instead of uninformed Leftists who know nothing about guns and who's only desire is to take away the ability to defend oneself because they embrace totalitarian ideology in the form of socialism/communism/fascism.

For example, a good book to start with is John Lotts "The War on Guns: Arming Yourself Against Gun Control Lies".

Thank you for the discussion...

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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:59 pm 
1st Counselor

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ldsfaqs wrote:

The Church is 100% wrong in this Intellectually. Morally, and Doctrinally. Bad guys don't follow rules, so the Church banning the innocent from having guns is tyranny, not the Gospel. Proof it doesn't work is that basically every "big" mass shooting has occurred in Gun Free Zones, and many shootings are stopped by good guys with a gun. Don't know why Church Leaders WANT more people to die... well, yes I do, Leftist propaganda.


Looks like you’re on the road to apostasy.

This is more evidence of the point I made above; that gun policy is the one area where certain believing members will question Church leadership. It’s their line in the sand.


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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:27 pm 
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Quote:
LDSFAQS
Do you actually think it's better people die, than to be prepared?


With the Gospel you imagine is real, does this question even make sense? It is irrelevant where or how you die, since we all die. Do you really believe in Mormonism??? I cannot fathom how you can ask this if you actually did believe in it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:00 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Quote:
LDSFAQS
Do you actually think it's better people die, than to be prepared?


With the Gospel you imagine is real, does this question even make sense? It is irrelevant where or how you die, since we all die. Do you really believe in Mormonism??? I cannot fathom how you can ask this if you actually did believe in it.


How does what he said there not make sense? If a believer has a hurricane coming in should they not shutter their windows?

I don't get where you're coming from there, Philo.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:06 pm 
God
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Quote:
JerseyGirl

How does what he said there not make sense? If a believer has a hurricane coming in should they not shutter their windows?

I don't get where you're coming from there, Philo.


In a church, it wouldn't matter if you die there or not. You are on your way to heaven, no? So why worry about dying?

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:27 pm 
God
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Quote:
JerseyGirl

How does what he said there not make sense? If a believer has a hurricane coming in should they not shutter their windows?

I don't get where you're coming from there, Philo.


In a church, it wouldn't matter if you die there or not. You are on your way to heaven, no? So why worry about dying?


If you are a believer and believe that you are headed to heaven, what possible difference does the location make to begin with?

So faqs is talking about being prepared for the worst by carrying, right? By your reckoning, it shouldn't matter if a believer is prepared at all for anything or take any precautions.

If a hurricane is coming, I shouldn't bother sandbagging or shuttering the house.

If I drive a car, I should never test the brakes because eff it.

If I'm sick, I should just skip the doctor.

If the house is on fire, I should sit there and burn. Heck with the fire extinguisher in the kitchen.

I'm not saying that I support carrying (concealed or open) in a church building. What I am saying (in so many words) is that you seem to be making believers faith into a cartoon and using cartoonish reasoning to draw it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:24 am 
God
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ldsfaqs wrote:

4. The population of the UK is 60 Million.
The population of the US is 320 Million.
The UK has a Homicide Rate of 1.20
The US a Homicide Rate of 5.30
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... death_rate

Math states that the UK actually has a HIGHER Homicide Rate than the US.

Hey LDSfaqs, the homicide rate is based on the number of homicides per 100,000 people. The math calculation had already been done.

UK - 0.06
US - 4.46

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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:01 am 
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Between my career and my family background I think I know more about firearms than most people. I've fired a lot of different weapons, from muskets to heavy machine guns and anti-tank rockets. I've even directed tank fire, albeit just once on a range. I can discuss wound ballistics and optimum rifling pitch. I don't currently own any firearms myself, but only because there are enough hunting rifles in my family that I just borrow one for deer hunting each year. You have to zero the sight each year anyway.

Up to a point I like guns, but they're like chainsaws only more so. In competent hands they are valuable tools but if somebody who has one doesn't seem to know what they're doing I'm going to leave and get out of range fast. Handguns give me the heebie-jeebies because their muzzles can swing around so quickly. They're almost useless as weapons because your chance of hitting and stopping a serious target is too far below 100%, but their chance of hurting a bystander is much too far above zero. I wouldn't mind seeing them banned. I'm not in favor of banning all firearms, though. I don't know of any countries that do that.

In all countries I know, however, it's a lot harder to own guns than it is in the United States of America. According to Wikipedia the USA is the only country in the world with more civilian guns than people. It has three-and-a-half times as many privately owned firearms per person than Canada, which is the closest competitor among developed countries. In Canada it's perfectly legal to own firearms but only if you have the federally issued license, and to get that you have to take and pass a day-long safety course led by an accredited instructor and then pass a police background check. It's true that other countries which have tightened their gun control laws have not seen corresponding drops in gun homicide rates. Blazes, though: you do actually have to think a bit about this stuff.

Other countries that have tightened their gun control laws only tightened them slightly. They already had much stronger gun control laws than the US. And they already had far fewer guns and far fewer gun homicides per person. To argue against US gun control from recent trends in other countries is like saying that since reducing the speed limit from 55 mph to 50 mph doesn't prevent many traffic deaths, it follows that speed limits do not save any lives and one should therefore keep the American speed limit at 500 mph.

It is easy to claim that loony lefties use bogus statistical arguments, but in fact the American gun lobby uses bogus arguments, too. If you so badly misunderstand the meaning of Homicide Rate that you think 1.2 is higher than 5.3, and cannot read the page that you yourself cited to find 0.06 and 4.46, then I'm afraid you should probably not throw statistics around.


Last edited by Physics Guy on Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:45 am 
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The last time faqs went deer hunting it was with a .223; poor Bambi. He doesn’t own any guns nor does he have any real shooting experience so not sure why it matters so much.

The Church only has this policy to protect itself from lawsuits should someone feel threatened or get hurt in a contentious priesthood meeting.

Toon, I totally get where your coming from and you did call it, this may be the line the sand for marginal right-wing members like faqs, but I think they should reconsider. Aren’t these the same people who blame the victims of abuse by their leaders? Don’t they want to protect the Church’s financial interests, even with their very lives?

Think about the cattle ranches.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church & Guns - I have a question...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:01 am 
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Gadianton wrote:
The Church only has this policy to protect itself from lawsuits should someone feel threatened or get hurt in a contentious priesthood meeting.
I think that policy of protecting the finances of the Church is behind most of the Church's policy amendments and additions.

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