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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:37 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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Tom wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
Oh, wow.... I had completely forgotten about that, Doctor Cam, but you're right: he had promised to produce *two* books, if I'm not mistaken. I wonder what the written terms of that deal were. Maybe he made that post because, at the meeting, his colleagues were like, "So, Dan: when do we get to read these two books?"

Let me quote a post of his from back in 2014:

Quote:
I applied [for leave] specifically regarding two books—a complete rewrite of the second edition of my Abraham Divided: An LDS Perspective on the Middle East and a volume about the Qur’an’s conception of the origin and nature of the physical cosmos and about what I regard as an implicit Qur’anic natural theology. The University deemed them worthy of leave, and, accordingly, granted my request....

If I don’t finish them, that won’t reflect well on me, and it would greatly lessen the credibility of any future leave request that I might make. However, I’m so very old now that there won’t be another leave request before I retire. So that’s not much of a threat. I intend to finish them—I want to finish them; that’s why I sought the leave, after all—but the consequences of a failure to do so would be minimal.

See Daniel Peterson, "My latest richly-deserved professional punishment?," Sic et Non, Feb. 21, 2014 (on file with Cassius University).

I was considering auditing the class in question, but BYU’s online class schedule tool shows only a few seats open (unless I’m misreading it). I am puzzled. In any case, I don’t want to ruin the curve for the younger students given my expertise in Qur’anic intelligent design and limited and Heartland geography theories.

Only a few seats? So, then, did they all fill up on account of Peterson's blog entry? Or, instead, were they mostly full to begin with, and this is mere bellyaching about the time slot? Passive-aggressive lashing out at others in his department?

Hmmm. I'm sensing a pattern here....

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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:27 am 
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Lou Midgley wrote:
The thought of leaching late into the evening, or teaching "night school" for extra money, which I never did, seemed to violate the whole idea that universities were gentlemen.

That is a point that is roundly endorsed by Bertie Wooster, Barmy Fotheringay-Phipps, Gussie Fink-Nottle, Brett Kavanaugh, P.J., and Squee. "We're gentlemen, Dammit! The evenings are for a jolly frolicking."

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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:26 pm 
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That is a point that is roundly endorsed by Bertie Wooster, Barmy Fotheringay-Phipps, Gussie Fink-Nottle, Brett Kavanaugh, P.J., and Squee. "We're gentlemen, Dammit! The evenings are for a jolly frolicking."

However, lets us keep the context dearest Penguin... the frolicking of Midgley and Co., is to be had in the temples in the evenings. Let them waste no precious time outside of the temples. The world is no place fit to live, only in the holy places ought one to be found, as Jesus is right around the corner on his Harley coming back for the second time, and he is so mad at the enormous waste of time of the chapel Mormons that he is riding in on a wheelie.

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:01 pm 
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I'm assuming that DCP's recent "resolve"--i.e., his pledge to Dr. Moore that he will not ever refer to this message board for six months in exchange for $10,000 to be donated to a charity--is a direct result of this thread. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Dr. Peterson.

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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:22 pm 
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Are we allowed to continue responding to his ideas, and showing why they have no sticking power in reality? I don't want to get Dr. Moore into trouble, but I also want to continue showing why the Mormon ideas are just not as valid as apologists assume they are. I have no contention with Peterson, the man, but I find his ideas less than stellar in many cases with much logical loopholes and problems which ought to be addressed.

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:45 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Are we allowed to continue responding to his ideas, and showing why they have no sticking power in reality? I don't want to get Dr. Moore into trouble, but I also want to continue showing why the Mormon ideas are just not as valid as apologists assume they are. I have no contention with Peterson, the man, but I find his ideas less than stellar in many cases with much logical loopholes and problems which ought to be addressed.

Philo, you’re a gentleman and a scholar!

Obviously I couldn’t claim any influence over anyone on this board. My deal with Dr. Peterson is just that an agreement between two people.


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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:22 pm 
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It would seem that there is an update in this story:

Dr. OMG wrote:
I wish you well on your last semester teaching Professor Peterson. I'm sure you will be missed.

DCP wrote:
Am I being fired?

Dr. OMG wrote:
Yes, but you won't find out until you're out of the country and then, only by email.

Seriously though, I heard from a mutual colleague of ours today that you were retiring at the end of the year.

DCP wrote:
I'm aware that some of my harshest critics, claiming insider knowledge, are saying that I will be forced out at the end of this year.

If this is going to happen, I'VE heard nothing about it. And I cannot think of any reason why it WOULD happen.

I'll eventually retire. I've pretty well settled on WHEN I'll retire. It will be at a time of my choosing. And it likely won't be this year.

Sorry to disappoint!

I have little doubt, though, that -- whenever I DO retire -- some will claim that my departure was coerced. It's what they do.

And there is this:

Louis Midgley wrote:
Oh My Gossip indeed!

Dr. OMG wrote:
Dan,

I don't see why. You know as well as I do that's not how it works at BYU. :)

Glad to hear you're not leaving at the end of the year.

Louis Midgley wrote:
Now Oh My Gossip, perhaps a doctor yet, knows "how it works at BYU."

DCP wrote:
dromg: "I don't see why. You know as well as I do that's not how it works at BYU."

Dr. Bradford has retired.

Very interesting!

Please allow me to speculate. Suppose that Dr. Peterson truly *has* pissed off his home department, and he knows it, and they are now maneuvering to usher him out in the most graceful way possible. Of course he is going to fight this tooth and nail, and it is going to be a bloodbath, right? So when he says:

Daniel Peterson wrote:
I'll eventually retire. I've pretty well settled on WHEN I'll retire. It will be at a time of my choosing. And it likely won't be this year.

Sorry to disappoint!

I tend to read that as his public rebuke to his departmental leadership and colleagues. "It will be at a time of my choosing" = "You want me out? Prepare to suffer through hell as you try to do it."

I'm sure everyone recalls how bitter and explosive DCP's ejection from the Maxwell Institute was. And I note that there is now a Professor on "Sic et Non" who is called "Professor 2012: Best Year Ever." Maybe 2019 will exceed 2012 in terms of its Mopologetic significance?

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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:10 am 
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Getting old professors to retire has long been a serious problem for North American universities. One chapter in Stephen Leacock's Arcadian Adventures with the Idle Rich, published in 1914, deals with a suddenly rich hayseed who tries to donate money to a university. The dean is delighted because with this windfall he will be able to demolish university buildings and retire professors. Improving the institution by adding new things isn't even on the table; the priority is just to get rid of old things. It's funny because it's true.

Older faculty often slow down a lot. They may stop doing much research, for example because they've gotten bored with the easy problems and despairing about the hard ones. They may stop working hard on revising their lectures, because having taught all their courses multiple times they've settled into a comfortable groove for each one and they have the seniority to avoid having to teach new courses.

This means, however, that being an older professor is a pretty cushy job if you have a high boredom threshold. And it typically pays pretty well, too. So people don't want to retire. It can be quite hard to push them out. A distinguished experimental physicist from MIT, Daniel Kleppner, wrote an article in Physics Today years ago to urge senior faculty to retire. His article began with a mock anecdote about a professor who continued to hold his chair from beyond the grave because when it came to it death made little difference to what he was doing. Kleppner himself retired sharp at 65 just on principle, to free up a slot at MIT for a younger scientist, even though he was still a very active researcher and teacher.

In Germany there is compulsory retirement at an age fixed by law, so the issue doesn't arise. I know exactly when I'm going to retire (if God wills that I live till then). It doesn't bother me because I'm a theoretician. I can pursue my research from home as well as I can from my current office. I'll still be welcome to offer lectures if I want, and nothing will stop me from collaborating with any students or post-docs that I can interest in my projects. I can sympathize with my experimentalist colleagues, though. They'll have to give up their labs to their successors, who will fill them with new equipment of their own, and retired professors generally can't afford to set up million-dollar labs in their rec rooms at home.

I don't understand how Peterson could put up any more fight than I could, however. Doesn't BYU's limited form of tenure allow the university to dismiss faculty whenever it wants? Can't they just change the lock on his office door and toss his stuff in the street?


Last edited by Physics Guy on Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:20 am 
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Physics Guy wrote:
Getting old professors to retire has long been a serious problem for North American universities. One chapter in Stephen Leacock's Arcadian Adventures with the Idle Rich, published in 1914, deals with a suddenly rich hayseed who tries to donate money to a university. The dean is delighted because with this windfall he will be able to demolish university buildings and retire professors. Improving the institution by adding new things isn't even on the table; the priority is just to get rid of old things. It's funny because it's true.

Older faculty often slow down a lot. They may stop doing much research, for example because they've gotten bored with the easy problems and despairing about the hard ones. They may stop working hard on revising their lectures, because having taught all their courses multiple times they've settled into a comfortable groove for each one and they have the seniority to avoid having to teach new courses.

This means, however, that being an older professor is a pretty cushy job if you have a high boredom threshold. And it typically pays pretty well, too. So people don't want to retire. It can be quite hard to push them out. A distinguished experimental physicist from MIT, Daniel Kleppner, wrote an article in Physics Today years ago to urge senior faculty to retire. His article began with a mock anecdote about a professor who continued to hold his chair from beyond the grave because when it came to it death made little difference to what he was doing. Kleppner himself retired sharp at 65 just on principle, to free up a slot at MIT for a younger scientist, even though he was still a very active researcher and teacher.

In Germany there is compulsory retirement at an age fixed by law, so the issue doesn't arise. I know exactly when I'm going to retire (if God wills that I live till then). It doesn't bother me because I'm a theoretician. I can pursue my research from home as well as I can from my current office. I'll still be welcome to offer lectures if I want, and nothing will stop me from collaborating with any students or post-docs that I can interest in my projects. I can sympathize with my experimentalist colleagues, though. They'll have to give up their labs to their successors, who will fill them with new equipment of their own, and retired professors generally can't afford to set up million-dollar labs in their rec rooms at home.
That all sounds good, in theory...

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:52 am 
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I noticed that Dr. OMG has apparently been banned merely for daring to ask about this. Very, very curious indeed.

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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:50 am 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
I noticed that Dr. OMG has apparently been banned merely for daring to ask about this. Very, very curious indeed.

Mormon apologists are........just..........so.........odd.......... someone (Wang Chung?) posted several student reviews and one of them said all Peterson did was talk about all his accomplishments and how BYU COULD NOT fire him, (he was too valuable) so he could do anything he wanted! This was in the topic of him writing two more books. That condescending smugness actually fits in with what we have seen through the years at Interpreter and Sic et Non. He is so great that the Church simply must have him. I mean, that's the essence of it's all about me, me, me! I bet he secretly does sneak out and drink a cup of coffee...... :biggrin:

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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:23 pm 
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A little porn has to be DCP's vice.

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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:14 pm 
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For all you students of Mopologetics out there, it's time for a pop quiz. How should one best interpret the following exchange?:

DCP wrote:
dromg: "I don't see why. You know as well as I do that's not how it works at BYU."

Dr. Bradford has retired.


Dr. OMG wrote:
"Dr. Bradford has retired."

LOL!

Daniel C. Peterson - a true gentleman, scholar, priesthood holder, BYU professor and Mormon.


Louis Midgley wrote:
So dromg did not realize that Jerry Bradford had retired years ago?


Daniel Peterson wrote:
LOL.


This is an open-ended, short answer essay-type question, so feel free to take as much time as you'd like.

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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:50 pm 
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For the curious, the correct answer is: “This was a clear case of deflection. Notice how they went straight to Bradford. They are trying to communicate to their readership that DCP was only ever “excused” from something once in his life, and that only happened because of Gerald Bradford. It’s certainly not going to happen again, and it most assuredly doesn’t have anything to do with, e.g., problematic online behavior, or failing to fulfill publishing obligations, say.

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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:03 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
For the curious, the correct answer is: “This was a clear case of deflection. Notice how they went straight to Bradford. They are trying to communicate to their readership that DCP was only ever “excused” from something once in his life, and that only happened because of Gerald Bradford. It’s certainly not going to happen again, and it most assuredly doesn’t have anything to do with, e.g., problematic online behavior, or failing to fulfill publishing obligations, say.


Wow! That really is a world class example of deflection. Bradford has been gone for years, but he is still Woody and Peter$on's favorite scapegoat.

Brilliant analysis Dr. Scratch.

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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:44 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
For the curious, the correct answer is: “This was a clear case of deflection. Notice how they went straight to Bradford. They are trying to communicate to their readership that DCP was only ever “excused” from something once in his life, and that only happened because of Gerald Bradford. It’s certainly not going to happen again, and it most assuredly doesn’t have anything to do with, e.g., problematic online behavior, or failing to fulfill publishing obligations, say.


Wow! That really is a world class example of deflection. Bradford has been gone for years, but he is still Woody and Peter$on's favorite scapegoat.

Brilliant analysis Dr. Scratch.


If the speculations are correct, then I can only imagine how enraged they are. This has to hurt--i.e., to be "scooped" and to have the announcement of this made by the "anti-Mormons" on MormonDiscussions.com! Now there is no way that he can *ever* retire without us assuming that he had been pressured to do so by people at BYU. The only real alternative that I can see for him would be for him to go totally silent, with no blogging or attention-seeking whatsoever, and to finish those two books and to get them published, and *then* to retire. Otherwise, no matter what he does, the retirement is going be seen as something that was desired by his department--and possibly other stakeholders--due to his lack of promised job performance, and perhaps due to other factors (such as his online behavior).

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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:50 pm 
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By the way: I left the following comment on FPR in response to this recent thread on "Faith Promoting Rumor":

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Excellent opening post and comments. These is an additional detail that I think is worth pointing out: i.e., that publications in the old “FARMS Review” *did* use to count towards a person’s CV requirements: there is an endnote about the deal that was hammered out in the second of Quinn’s “Mormon Hierarchy” books. Publications in the “Review” *did* count for Dan Peterson, however, they didn’t for Bill Hamblin! Hamblin wrote an exceptionally bitter post about it on his now-defunct blog, “Enigmatic Mirror.”

But those old “standards”–i.e., accepting Mopologetic drivel from the “FARMS Review” as “legitimate” research, has apparently been completely blasted from BYU. Publishing with the “Mormon Studies Review,” would, of course, count. But now, it would seem, every last department at BYU has brought the axe down on Mopologetics.

I hope, smallaxe, that you saw Peterson’s recent post concerning the undesirable teaching time that he was assigned by his home department. What do you want to bet that his colleagues are fed up with the non-scholarly crap that he’s been doing all these years?


And the following response was made by "N.W. Clerk," likely a pseudonymous post from DCP himself, if you ask me:

N.W. Clerk wrote:
Since the Coordinator for Middle Eastern Studies is teaching at an even worse time slot than Dr. Peterson (4:30-5:45), I doubt the accuracy of your schadenfreude-based explanation.


Either that is Peterson himself, or someone close enough to him to know the reasons why he was given the "undesirable" time slot. In any case, I responded as follows:

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Was the coordinator also publicly bellyaching about an “even worse time slot”? I am more than happy to be proven wrong, and am glad to admit that I was speculating. Here’s the thing, though: the Coordinator would presumably get to assign his/her/their *own* time slot, no? So, how likely is it that the Coordinator–in assigning his/her/their own time slot–would deliberately choose a time that he/she/they found undesirable? Don’t we kind of have to grant the fact that “undesirable” is subjective? It may very well be that the Coordinator *wants* a later teaching time. We don’t know one way or the other, and you claiming that the Coordinator’s time slot is “worse”–and your concurrent assumption that the Coordinator him/her/theirself would consider it so–is speculation, too. Whatever the case may be, we *do* know with a certainty that Daniel Peterson feels that the time he was assigned is “unusually late.”

If you have a better explanation as to why Peterson was given an “unusually late” teaching time, I’d love to hear it.


I don't expect that there will be any further explanation.

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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:46 pm 
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After a second look at the BYU class schedule, I think there are actually 35 open seats in Dr. Peterson's Intro to the Religion of Islam class. There's room for 40 students.


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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:55 pm 
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Tom wrote:
After a second look at the BYU class schedule, I think there are actually 35 open seats in Dr. Peterson's Intro to the Religion of Islam class. There's room for 40 students.


And they are still allowing the class to run? Or will it be canceled?

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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:13 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
A very, very unusual and intriguing item was posted on "Sic at Non" not long ago. Dr. Peterson opens the entry with a paean to the people in his academic department at BYU:

SeN wrote:
It was a real loss to our Arabic faculty at BYU when my longtime friend and colleague Dil Parkinson retired a couple of years ago. (By the way, he and his wife are now just back from an LDS humanitarian services mission to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan — another item that is simply begging to be included in your already overflowing “Christopher Hitchens Memorial ‘How Religion Poisons Everything’ File.”) But, gathering with most of our faculty this afternoon for our annual pre-fall-semester meeting — Kirk Belnap is leading a BYU intensive Arabic program in Amman, Jordan, and Ahmad Karout is back for a while in his native Syria, from which he will nonetheless be teaching classes for us online — I was impressed with the intelligence, strong backgrounds, and ability of my colleagues and with their sheer desire to teach and serve. And that is to say nothing of the other faculty who teach in our broader Middle East Studies – Arabic or MESA program.


.


Interesting token for those interested. I know Dil Parkinson, he’s brilliant, but what I wanted to share is that he is also first cousins with.....drum roll please...John Dehlin

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 Post subject: Re: Has DCP Pissed Off His Home Dept. at BYU?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:14 am 
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The Parkinsons are a wonderful family. One of my former students is a Parkinson. He introduced me to his fine parents. They were among the kindest and most decent people I have met, and, yes, they are relatives of John Dehlin.


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