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 Post subject: "What got translated got translated into the word of God"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:35 am 
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Jeffrey R Holland wrote:
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All I'm saying is what got translated got translated into the word of God the vehicle for that I do not understand and don't claim to know and know no Egyptian.

QUESTION: Specifically, what is elder Holland referring to in "what got translated"?

ANSWER: The Book of Abraham in its entirety which was first published in the Times and Seasons and titled:

1. "TRANSLATED FROM THE PAPYRUS"
2. "A Translation of some ancient Records"

QUESTION: Other than the title introduction given by Joseph Smith is there another specific example in the Book of Abraham for "what got translated"?

ANSWER: Yes:

A FACSIMILE FROM THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM NO. 2 wrote:
The above translation is given as far as we have any right to give at the present time.

QUESTION: What "translation" is referenced above?

ANSWER: EXPLANATIONS for Figures 1-21. For example:

EXPLANATION Fig. 8. wrote:
Contains writings that cannot be revealed unto the world; but is to be had in the Holy Temple of God.

QUESTION: What are in the writings of Fig. 8 that cannot be revealed to the world?

ANSWER: It's an Egyptian spell that says: "Lo, the soul of Osiris Shoshenq will live" and it's transliterated as: ti anx bA Wsir SAs(nq)

QUESTION: What does this have to do with Joseph Smith's temple?

ANSWER: Absolutely nothing. The Mormon temple ceremony is not represented in any way within the register of Fig. 8.

QUESTION: How did the Explanation for Fig. 8 get translated into the word of God?

ANSWER: It didn't. The Explanation given for Fig. 8 is not the word of God and has nothing to do with Smith's temple. It is however a pagen spell of a faithful Egyptian and is attributed to his god, Osiris.

QUESTION: How then does the Church justify its canonized statement?

ANSWER: It doesn't. The Church has never commented on this error. The Church avoids it and refuses to discuss it. Nevertheless, the Church continues to print this funerary spell and attributes it to its own temple ceremony.

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:37 am 
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Shulem wrote:
QUESTION: Specifically, what is elder Holland referring to in "what got translated"?

Nothing. His statement is meant to avoid answering good questions about Joseph's claims with the Book of Abraham. I think a part of him knows he is being dishonest. He knows enough to know what Joseph claimed he was doing and that the papyri does not translate into what Joseph claimed. I think the catalyst theory will eventually become the church standard here and with the Book of Mormon. His answer fits it perfectly. Truth is always secondary to believing what the church leaders tell you.

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:31 am 
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Themis wrote:
Nothing. His statement is meant to avoid answering good questions about Joseph's claims with the Book of Abraham.

The questions posed by BBC News were quite good. Elder Holland's response was to ignore the whole thing by stating he knows no Egyptian. But that in itself is a lie. Elder Holland knows a little Egyptian and has read apologetic articles to that effect. When he says he knows no Egyptian he is in reality, lying. He's supposed to be an educated man and from a fine university. Can anyone doubt he's not familiar with Hugh Nibleys works? A lot of Egyptian language is mentioned in those works and elder Holland knows BYU stuff. Right?

Themis wrote:
I think a part of him knows he is being dishonest. He knows enough to know what Joseph claimed he was doing and that the papyri does not translate into what Joseph claimed.

Holland knows that he knows some Egyptian. He knows about the basic arguments of the Book of Abraham controversy as detailed through Hugh Nibley and others. Knowing those arguments means one also knows a little Egyptian. Therefore, elder Holland is a liar.

Interestingly enough, elder Holland doesn't seem to equate Joseph Smith's own Egyptian terms with Egyptian, for example:

1. which is called by the Egyptians Jah-oh-eh.
2. a numerical figure, in Egyptian signifying one thousand
3. Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh

I don't blame elder Holland for not mentioning those above terms during his BBC interview. He would have made a fool out of himself just like Joseph Smith made a fool of himself in making that stuff up.

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Last edited by Shulem on Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:39 am 
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Once again, the sharp eye of Shulem cuts right to the chase, the fundamental dishonesty of church leaders when it comes to dealing with Joseph Smith's scriptures. Excellent points both of you!

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:10 pm 
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Elder Holland dodged a main point and answered with a nonanswer in failing to side with Joseph Smith who claimed to translate Egyptian hieroglyphs into the English language.

Jeffrey R Holland wrote:
what got translated got translated


or

What got interpreted got interpreted

or

What got expressed got expressed

or

What got changed got changed

or

What got converted got converted

or

What got transcribed got transcribed

or

What got transliterated got transliterated

IT'S NO ANSWER!

:mad:

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:32 pm 
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When the Book of Abraham was published in Nauvoo in 1842 the Kirtland temple was the only temple in existence and the only temple ever completed during Smith's lifetime.

Image

There is nothing in Joseph Smith's translation from the Egyptian hieroglyphs contained in the register of Facsimile No. 2 Fig. 8 that resembles anything I know about the Kirtland temple.

FACSIMILE NO. 2 wrote:
Fig. 8. Contains writings that cannot be revealed unto the world; but is to be had in the Holy Temple of God.


The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has yet to show any connection between the Egyptian writing of Fascimile No. 2 and the Kirtland temple. To this day the church has never said anything about it.

Why is that?

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Last edited by Shulem on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:48 pm 
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Plans for the Kirtland House of the Lord. On the other side are pasted ancient Egpytian Papyri Fragments, part of the collection Joseph Smith used to translate the Book of Abraham

Image

FACSIMILE NO. 2 wrote:
Fig. 8. Contains writings that cannot be revealed unto the world; but is to be had in the Holy Temple of God.

Image


Again, I ask: What specifically in Facsimile No. 2 Fig. 8 is contained in the Kirtland Temple?

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:59 pm 
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“... but is to be had in the Holy Temple of God.”

What does that word salad even mean?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:35 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
“... but is to be had in the Holy Temple of God.”

What does that word salad even mean?

- Doc


Even a salad consists of various known ingredients.

What if anything in Fig. 8 is contained in the Kirtland Temple? I can't think of anything. Can the Church think of something?

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:56 pm 
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The catalyst theory... ugh.

To hold water, Joseph must be portrayed as an inspired fool.

Would Joseph NOT excommunicate any one of us for claiming that?

Of course, this serves the remaining narrative just fine. A foolish uneducated boy is far better than a brilliant storyteller.


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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:24 pm 
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Quote:
What if anything in Fig. 8 is contained in the Kirtland Temple? I can't think of anything. Can the Church think of something?

When I was doing apologetics, I used this as a take off for speculating that it had something to do with the new name, if I remember correctly... So there is that. Keep it mysterious, don't say too much, and be just vague enough to help member sort of nod their head while rubbing their chin thinking, yeahhhhhhhhhhhh it really could be something like that! That's brilliant! What a head trip I was on man. I think I got the idea from James R. Harris, who, incidentally was really REALLY pissed at Nibley since he stole all of Harris's hypocaphali and didn't return them but ended up using a lot of them for his own publications. That was the story I was told. It was why Harris NEVER cited anything of Nibley's materials. I asked someone that once, and they told me this story.

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:54 pm 
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Quote:
Contains writings that cannot be revealed unto the world; but is to be had in the Holy Temple of God.


I think that it’s important for leaders of cults, religions, or what have you, to tease this kind of stuff. When Jesus came to the Americas only a “hundredth part” was recorded. And don’t forget about the sealed part of the Book of Mormon. Also there was the fabled briefcase at the Swedish Rescue. Look guys, there is amazing, wonderful stuff out there that will blow your minds if only you are true and faithful.

The mistake L. Ron Hubbard made was to actually reveal the amazing, wonderful, crazy stuff. Then the mystery and magic is lost and what is left looks a lot like crappy science fiction. Sure Joseph gave us Kokaubeam and other fun wacky stuff, but he left much to the imagination. He knew how to lead and tease the masses. A true visionary in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:51 am 
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The bottom line is that a senior apostle of the church is claiming to not understand the process and is chalking up the method of translation as something nobody can understand or properly explain. If Holland can't explain it then who can? Nobody!

That's where church members are left today. No answers are given and no answers are coming anytime soon. Just have faith in no answers. That's what the church asks and expects. Wait till the next life to get answers.

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:55 am 
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"All I'm saying is what got translated got translated into the word of God the vehicle for that I do not understand and don't claim to know and know no Egyptian." (Mr J.R. Holland, Apostle).

There's a lot wrong with this statement.

1. How can an Apostle of the Church not know where the Book Of Abraham comes from?
2. When Mr Holland says "translated into the word of God", was it not the word of God originally?
3. How is Mr Holland's personal lack of knowledge of the Egyptian language a defence for the Book Of Abraham not bearing any resemblance to what the papyrus actually says and from which Joseph Smith said he translated it?
4. Is I-went-to-a-good-school-and-read-some-books-Mr Holland actually saying, with a straight face, that he doesn't understand why the papyrus actual translation doesn't match what Joseph Smith said it was?
5. Is Mr Holland calling Joseph Smith a liar or a dupe?

This mishmash of a mealy mouthed answer was given under the pressure of a reporter putting him on the spot for answer. The reason his answer is a mess is because he was trying to quickly come up with an apologetic that wasn't already in his mind. The translation of the Book Of Abraham is clearly one of Mr Hollands shelf items. And his demeanour during the interview section covering this shows it causes him discomfort to talk about it. He couldn't give the reporter a straight honest answer, so he produced a jumbled up response and made himself look like an idiot.

In his position Mr Holland could've said:
"Whilst modern egyptologists can find no translation synergy between the Book Of Abraham and the papyrus Joseph Smith used to produce it, and I have no further insight into how Joseph produced it beyond what he himself said - that it was an actual translation of the papyrus; I maintain my personal belief that it is the word of God, even if Joseph was mistaken about where his inspiration for the translated words was coming from."
That would have been an honest and clear statement for Mr Holland to make. It's what the Church and its apologists should say. Because it's the evidentiary and simple matter of fact. But Apostles can't be honest and straightforward, they feel they have to be tricky and slippery in their statements to avoid damaging tithing receipts faith.

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:09 am 
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I have a question wrote:
2. When Mr Holland says "translated into the word of God", was it not the word of God originally?


It's almost like Holland is suggesting that something ordinary and of small value was transformed as if by magic into something of great value and that this could only be performed through revelation and the Spirit. It's almost like Holland is admitting that the papyrus Smith used really was just funerary spells and that God used his magical ways to reveal the Book of Abraham with or without a papyrus. Thus, the Catalyst theory is gaining ground.

This also points to the idea that having Egyptologists at BYU is simply no longer needed. They have served their purpose. It's time to relocate them and phase them out. The Church is moving into the direction that papyrus was simply used to stir up Smith's thinking about ancient things in which he knew little of. Keeping that in mind, you will recall Smith pointing at characters and claimed they were the autograph of Abraham. Well, it's that same Spirit that pointed at those characters as Abraham's autograph as is the same Spirit that gave Smith the Book of Abraham. It's solid evidence, if not solid proof itself that Smith's so-called inspiration through the Spirit is bogus. You see, if Smith can't get the autograph right through inspiration how can he be expected to get the Book of Abraham right? When small things are wrong the bigger things are too. And one thing is for sure, Smith was wrong when he claimed characters on his papyrus were the autograph of Abraham. It's at that point that an educated person shouldn't believe another word he says.

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:57 am 
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Jeffrey R Holland wrote:
All I'm saying is what got translated got translated into the word of God the vehicle for that I do not understand and don't claim to know and know no Egyptian.


An apostle of the church can't give an explanation on how a translation became the word of God? It sounds to me that Holland doesn't understand much of anything. He's a do-do!

How would it sound if a baker were to say:

A baker wrote:
All I'm saying is what got baked got baked into the cake and the ingredients for that I do not know and don't claim to know and know no ingredients.


So, how did the baker bake the cake?

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:02 am 
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I don't know

Image

I don't know

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:20 am 
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Jeffrey R Holland wrote:
All I'm saying is what got translated got translated into the word of God the vehicle for that I do not understand and don't claim to know and know no Egyptian.


SHULEM: You claim that what got translated got translated into the word of God. Exactly what is it that got translated? Is it the hieroglyphic characters on the papyrus that got translated into the word of God? Is that what you're talking about?

HOLLAND: They got translated into the word of God.

SHULEM: Are the hieroglyphic characters on Facsimile No. 3 translated into God's Explanations or word?

HOLLAND: Yes, it's all the word of God.

SHULEM: If so then God knows the king's name written in the writing. I don't, do you? Does anyone beside God know? How about the poor chap who drew the original picture and labels? Does he know the king's name? He's the one that wrote it, right?

HOLLAND: It's a mystery.

SHULEM: Yep, for you it's a mystery. You're a do-do!

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:07 pm 
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What got translated got translated into his word, man.

Far out!


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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:54 pm 
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Do-do Holland wrote:
What got translated got translated into the word of God


Let's be clear about something:

No one alive today can take what got translated and translate it back into Egyptian! The English Explanations of the Facsimiles can NEVER be translated into Egyptian. This is proof that the Egyptian was never translated in the first place!

Isn't that right, Philo?

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 Post subject: Re: "What got translated got translated into the word of God
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:02 pm 
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The following English CANNOT be translated into Egyptian, therefore it was never translated from Egyptian in the first place!

Quote:
Fig. 5. Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob.


Nor can it be used by Albert Einstein to further modern science!

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