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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:54 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
If only Brett and Carson would come here and learn actual physics.......They probably learned theirs from their Seminary teacher who taught them a 6,000 year old earth, and meat falling from heaven to feed the animals after's Noah's flood. :rolleyes:

GREAT STUFF Physics Guy!!!!!!! I think I can speak for at least 6,458 of us that we all appreciate your efforts at helping us learn.

I don't want to ruin it for a lot of people but you know they're just trolling you? ill delete this in a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:08 pm 
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lostindc wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
If only Brett and Carson would come here and learn actual physics.......They probably learned theirs from their Seminary teacher who taught them a 6,000 year old earth, and meat falling from heaven to feed the animals after's Noah's flood. :rolleyes:

GREAT STUFF Physics Guy!!!!!!! I think I can speak for at least 6,458 of us that we all appreciate your efforts at helping us learn.

I don't want to ruin it for a lot of people but you know they're just trolling you? ill delete this in a bit.

Is it still possible to read the chat? Anyone have a link?


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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:17 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Is it still possible to read the chat? Anyone have a link?

Yes, the chat remains for every show on their twitch feed. If on a phone, switch to desktop mode when prompted and turn your phone sideways for the chat panel to display.

https://m.twitch.tv/videos/482515989

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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:32 pm 
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Thank you, lostindc!


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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:54 am 
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I missed Dr Moore's question about the mass of a black hole. No, it's not concentrated on the event horizon. It's concentrated in the central singularity. There is nothing at the event horizon at all (unless something happens to be falling through it at some moment, of course).

At least that's how it is in GR. Alternative theories have proposed alternative scenarios, but there is currently no observational evidence to support those alternatives, and there's a pretty good-looking argument that plain GR ought to be accurate for big black holes except quite near their singularities. So we probably do understand event horizons.


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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:03 am 
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Question for Physics Guy,

You'll agree that quarks, bosons, and leptons are really small -- down, down, down into the small end of space what we call the micro. My question has to do with what's down there. Suppose you could magnify a boson and see it clearly in a microscope. No, let's go further, suppose you could shrink yourself down and stand on a boson so that it was like the size of a planet. My question is: What's in that boson below your feet and how far down the micro does it go?

Thanks in advance for the answer.

Shulem

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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:40 am 
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For Shulem

We can only divide matter down so far and then we run into a fascinating thing... there is nothing physical there. All we are left with is pattern. Everything at that magnification is just vibration. That's my understanding. So what are we actually? That depends on what magnification we are talking about. I just read Martin Gardner's autobiography "The Why's of a Philosophical Scrivener," where he talks about this a little bit. He was the famous author of hundreds of mathematical game articles in Scientific American for decades.

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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:56 am 
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Bosons are a category of particles which includes many kinds of atoms and molecules that are not elementary particles but are made up of smaller particles. If you're asking about the smallest, most fundamental particles then you might be thinking of the Higgs boson in particular.

Anyway you couldn't stand on any of these elementary particles no matter how small you got, because at least according to present theory they are not merely small: they are literally mathematical points. It doesn't make any sense to ask what's inside them because they have no insides. They're not made of anything. They're just points with mass and charge, and that's all there is to say about them. So at least in a way Martin Gardner was right, as Philo Sofee says. When you look closely matter itself seems to dissolve into mathematical abstraction.

Present theory might be wrong, of course. Once upon a time we thought that protons and neutrons were points but then we discovered that they are blobs of quarks and gluons. So maybe all the particles that we currently think are fundamental are really made out of more fundamental particles. There's no evidence so far for that, though. And if we did find new elementary particles inside the ones we think we know now, then perhaps they would finally be true points with nothing inside them, and so the end of the story would really still be the same.


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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:58 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
For Shulem

We can only divide matter down so far and then we run into a fascinating thing... there is nothing physical there. All we are left with is pattern. Everything at that magnification is just vibration. That's my understanding. So what are we actually? That depends on what magnification we are talking about. I just read Martin Gardner's autobiography "The Why's of a Philosophical Scrivener," where he talks about this a little bit. He was the famous author of hundreds of mathematical game articles in Scientific American for decades.

We live in a very dense and compressed environment. Matter is all about us and is energy in one form or another. I tend to think that everything vibrates and has frequency whether in the macro end of space or the micro. With regards to the boson, however, we don't know what it's made of or how it operates. How far down, down, down, into the micro can we go before we discover new things that exist?

Well, as we go down, down, down deeper into the micro we really are left with mystery. Some might say there is a whole lot of nothing once you get down beyond the elementary fundamental unit. I'm willing to entertain the theory that the micro is infinite as is the macro. I like to keep an open mind. For all I know there are universes down there on their scale doing their own thing. Who can say there is or is not? For all I know our Big Bang was a small Big Bang to someone else.

What's on the other side of a black hole? Another side? A hole lot of nothing? What goes in goes out somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:13 am 
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I thought the black hole question was going to be sexual in nature. So did Carson. Next time steer the question appropriately and you'll get a hilarious response from Carson.

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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:42 am 
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Physics Guy wrote:
I missed Dr Moore's question about the mass of a black hole. No, it's not concentrated on the event horizon. It's concentrated in the central singularity. There is nothing at the event horizon at all (unless something happens to be falling through it at some moment, of course).


Help me out here. To the outside observer, which includes all of us, time approaching the event horizon slows down infinitely. Therefore, to us, the moment of formation of the black hole is all we can see, if we couod see it. Also, through all of the millions/billions of years since that moment, the material that fell into the black hole appears to us as having slowed infinitely too, appearing concentrated in a boiling ocean of matter at or just outside the event horizon. We can never see it go through. What am I missing?

Conversely, the observer falling into a black hole would see the entire universe speed up. This acceleration of the universe “movie” continues until, at the moment of passing through the event horizon, the observer witnesses the universe passing away; the viewer would literally see the end of time.

Is that not right?

Related, I understood Hawking radiation in simple terms to be predicted exactly because the matter at the event horizon is under such forces that quantum behavior becomes relevant. Meaning some of the matter expresses as energy with a probability distribution on both sides of the event horizon. When it manifests on the outside, that energy escapes. Thus black holes, without new matter to feed on, slowly decay.

Then there is the question about conservation of energy and information, and whether or not black holes serve as giant magic erasers of history.


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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:28 pm 
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Gravitational redshift.

If you launch a ball upwards against gravity it slows down, losing kinetic energy. Light never slows down, but it also loses kinetic energy if it travels up a gravitational well. It does this by lowering its frequency and stretching its wavelength. Blue light becomes redder. The effect is much like the Doppler effect. A light source that is below you in a gravitational field is kind of like a light source that is moving away from you. Light falling inwards in a gravity well is correspondingly blueshifted, gaining frequency and shortening its wavelength. Both effects have been measured on Earth. With extremely sensitive interferometric measurements of frequency the effect has been seen over a height difference of only about 100 meters.

An event horizon is a surface of infinite redshift. Any light that got away from the event horizon itself would be redshifted to infinite wavelength, which for a light wave is equivalent to just not being there at all. And if an immortal observer used a rocket with an infinite fuel supply to sit well outside a black hole and watch it forever, with a very large antenna to detect very long wavelengths of radiation, then this observer could watch glowing things falling into the black hole forever. To this observer it would appear that the objects fell more and more slowly as they approached the event horizon, so that they never quite reached it but just kept getting closer and closer to it forever.

At the same time, however, the light emitted by the objects would be getting more and more redshifted, until at some point the stretched-out wavelengths were too long even for the observer's very large antenna. At that point the observer would lose the signal from the falling object. So as far as the observations of the outside observer are concerned nothing ever quite falls into a black hole. Instead everything just slows down and fades away.

That fading away due to gravitational redshift is an effect of time distortion; time distortion causes redshift because it affects all energy. If a lot of stuff keeps on falling into a black hole, then in terms of the timeline of the outside observer it just keeps piling up forever at the event horizon. But this does not make for a large concentration of mass at the horizon, because the energy of all that falling stuff is fading away just as fast as the stuff is piling up. The bottom line is that the mass at the horizon is just the amount of mass that is feeding the black hole. If the black hole is pretty much in vacuum with just occasional bits of stuff falling in, then the mass at the horizon is negligible compared to the mass of the singularity.

An observer who falls into the black hole could in a sense be said to live through what the outside observer counts as infinite time. The falling observer cannnot see the infinite history of whole universe, however. They only see the long history of a thin layer of space around the event horizon—and not much happens there, in all that time, because everything is super slow there, for external observers.

Thanks to time distortion, however, the falling observer sees that long, slow history all sped up. In other words they see events within that layer around the event horizon sped up to normal time. The falling observer sees nothing remarkable as they cross the event horizon. Everything looks to them the way it would look if there were no black hole. They notice nothing as they cross the fatal line.


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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:39 pm 
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I think we can all agree that black holes are the most strangest thing in all the universe. I mean really, black holes are totally freaky. What ever they are or do I would think they serve a purpose in this chaotic yet orderly universe we live in. Our universe is full of wonder and amazement.

Ain't it great to be alive?!

Yes it it!

:smile:

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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:01 pm 
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Thanks PG.

I hadn’t internalized what happens to the apparent energy from an outside observer’s standpoint. Very helpful clarification.

So whereas we know the matter and energy are in there, crawling ever more slowly (on our timeline) toward the event horizon, we can’t see it without an infinitely large antenna.

Finally I understand why Hawking radiation is undetectable. It’s energy — to our frame of observation — will be well below that of empty space.


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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:21 pm 
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Dr Moore wrote:
Thanks PG.


I second that. Thumbs up from me.

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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:31 am 
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Shulem wrote:
I mean really, black holes are totally freaky. What ever they are or do I would think they serve a purpose in this chaotic yet orderly universe we live in.

What makes you think that?

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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:42 am 
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That's right, the wavelengths of Hawking radiation from non-tiny black holes would be just too long. From a solar mass black hole most of the radiation would be on kilometer wavelengths, and even if you can build a kilometer-scale antenna, on those wavelengths there's a ton of noise from the cosmic microwave background. It would be very hard to discern the black hole's signal.

I say "would" because it's still not clear whether Hawking was actually right about black holes glowing. His calculation relies on extrapolation from current theory into regimes in which it has never been tested and will not be tested in the foreseeable future.

I should clarify stuff I've said about not noticing the event horizon as you fall into it. What's true is that there's no locally noticeable effect right around you—no lurch or bump, no change in how things inside your spacecraft move or appear. If you look around you out at the outside world, however, you can definitely figure out that you're close to a black hole. You can see this great big shadow blocking the stars, and weird focusing and diffraction effects on starlight around it. If you can see any things orbiting around the black hole outside its event horizon, you can figure out its location and mass from their orbits. So if you shut your cabin windows and pay no attention to the outside world then you might cross an event horizon without noticing, but if you keep your eyes open then you shouldn't have any trouble detecting the hazard from far enough away to avoid it.


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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:36 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Shulem wrote:
I mean really, black holes are totally freaky. What ever they are or do I would think they serve a purpose in this chaotic yet orderly universe we live in.

What makes you think that?


Because I believe everything happens for a reason and I do believe in a universal and infinite God.

Surprise, surprise!

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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:51 am 
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Quote:
Because I believe everything happens for a reason and I do believe in a universal and infinite God.

Surprise, surprise!

No surprise at all for me. The vehemence that you engage tells me you have a mighty powerful soul and its aching to get out. Interestingly enough, I am in the same boat. My reading of Alan Watts and Joseph Campbell and David Haight has transformed my thinking! I'm even thinking of making videos about spirituality now, amazingly enough! Oh the wisps and curves which wings of life propels us onward and upward!

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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:34 pm 
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Shulem & Philo,

That is very cool of you to share.

I was reading Joseph Campbell last night. The following struck a chord.

Campbell wrote:
You must understand that each religion is a kind of software that has its own set of signals and will work.

Campbell wrote:
You can keep an old tradition going only by renewing it in terms of current circumstances.


And this, speaking of the founding fathers.
Campbell wrote:
Over here we read, "In God We Trust." But that is not the god of the Bible. These men did not believe in a Fall. They did not think the mind of man was cut off from God. The mind of man, cleansed of secondary and merely temporal concerns, beholds with the radiance of a cleansed mirror a reflection of the rational mind of God. Reason puts you in touch with God. Consequently, for these men, there is no special revelation anywhere, and none is needed, because the mind of man cleared of its fallibilities is sufficiently capable of the knowledge of God. All people in the world are thus capable, because all people in the world are capable of reason.


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 Post subject: Re: A twitch feed called "Mormon Talk" now exists.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:30 pm 
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I read from the Joseph Campbell Foundation his book "Light the Eternal Metaphor" or something like that, and am now into his 4th in the Mask of God Series, Creative Mythology. Truly one of his all time greatest texts ever published! His Power of Myth interview with Bill Moyers and the book were great popularizers, and are fun, without doubt, but the deep ground, the heavy stuff is his Masks of God series. I am bowled over at his depth and breadth. Good heck no wonder in the authorized biography (I finished it last week) Joseph Campbell: Fire in the Mind, they made such a whoop dee doo about him and showed how many of his contemporaries felt his knowledge was simply encyclopedic. I will admit, when it got to his death, I cried. There was just nothing else to do.

And then.....THEN, yesterday, I found out his wife, Jean Erdman IS STILL ALIVE!!!!!!! she's 103 now!!!!!! Just good gosh man! I had no idea........she's world famous for her dance seminars, and classes.

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