Definition of God

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_Analytics
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Re: Definition of God

Post by _Analytics »

Gadianton wrote:
Chap wrote:Yup. You read that right. Since no coherent content has been allocated to the entity denoted by 'God',


What was it that isn't coherent about the entity "God"?

Are you saying because there are lots of definitions for God or some other reason?

I'll field this one.

The various definitions of "God" fall into the following categories:

1- definitions that are meaningless because they are so vague and indeterminate (e.g. God is the "ground of being")
2- definitions that are self-contradictory (e.g. the unchanging omnibenevolent omnipowerful everywhere and nowhere creator of everything)
3- definitions that are simply implausible (e.g. a space-traveling glowing hominoid with flesh and bones but without blood who resides on a planet orbiting Kolob)
4- definitions that when taken literally are trivial and redundant (God is love, God is nature, etc.)

Personally I have no problem with there being multiple definitions of God. The problem is that there isn't a single definition of God that is well-defined, coherent, plausible, and refers to something that can rightly be called God.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_Physics Guy
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Re: Definition of God

Post by _Physics Guy »

EAllusion wrote:Wes Morriston is the best writer on whether big bang cosmology supports the existence of a creator God.

Thanks for the suggestion. I don't expect to find time to read Morriston for a while, though, I'm afraid. And a quick look at his titles seems to indicate that he's talking about purported proofs, not "support" in the Bayesian sense. A proof fails if there's even a small loophole, and much of the work in a proof consists in ruling out even objections that seem far-fetched. Something that's well short of a proof can still shift one's prior, though. It's not clear to me that Morriston is even addressing whether the Big Bang supports theism. He seems to be talking about whether or not it proves it.
_Physics Guy
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Re: Definition of God

Post by _Physics Guy »

Analytics wrote:Personally I have no problem with there being multiple definitions of God. The problem is that there isn't a single definition of God that is well-defined, coherent, plausible, and refers to something that can rightly be called God.

Are you sure that you are applying a reasonable standard for a concept this difficult? I don't think there is a single definition of quantum gravity that is well-defined, coherent, plausible, and refers to something that can rightly be called quantum gravity. Nonetheless I'm pretty sure that there is some way in which quantum mechanics and gravitation reconcile themselves. So I'm willing to accept that vague definitions like "some kind of quantum theory that includes gravity," which would seem to fall into your category 1), can still be pointing to a real thing even though they're not very articulate.
_Physics Guy
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Re: Definition of God

Post by _Physics Guy »

Gadianton wrote:in terms of possible worlds, "necessity" just means a feature common to all possible worlds. You can have a restricted class of possible worlds bound to our laws of science -- nomological possibility.

I suppose that this is just the problem, to define the space between "impossible" and "actual". What exactly do the possible worlds have that the impossible worlds lack? What has the actual world got that the possible worlds ain't got?

Physics at least provides a certain hierarchy of degrees of possibility. The issue of initial conditions that I raised earlier was maybe awkwardly introduced because it unnecessarily conflated the issues of beginning and actuality. An actual solution can be determined by sufficient conditions on any spacelike hypersurface. Usually that hypersurface is taken to be "the initial time", but it doesn't have to be. The main point here is that since natural laws are all differential equations they admit many solutions as possible, and all they say about telling which one of them is the actual one is, "Look and see."

So the top tier of "possible but not necessarily actual" is "solution to the equations of motion". Physics says pretty much nothing about what crowns the actual winner out of this short list of possible winners.

There are lower tiers of possibility, I suppose, for solutions to other equations which we think are not the actually right equations but which could in principle have been the right equations for some universe. And there's probably some amount of consensus among physicists about what kinds of changes to the equations would count as small or big. It's a serious business among particle theorists, for instance, to ask what changes to the Standard Model might have passed undetected until now but be easiest to see next.

So "possible" seems like an awfully broad term to me. I have no confidence that we can say where its outer limits are and thus declare that anything is absolutely impossible, or conversely that anything is absolutely necessary. I don't feel that this cripples theology, though. To a child—or a Medieval—it might seem possible that birds could fly to the moon because air is taken for granted as something that must always be everywhere. Once you know what air is, and what the moon is, you understand otherwise. I'm not sure our current grasp on what reality is is any better than a medieval child's grasp on what air is. So I think it might seem perfectly possible to us now that there might be no God, even though in fact it's impossible because reality needs God, for reasons we don't yet understand.
_fetchface
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Re: Definition of God

Post by _fetchface »

KevinSim wrote:What exactly is the God that atheists believe doesn't exist? If someone calls herself/himself an atheist what is a/he saying s/he doesn't believe exists?

I'm more of an apatheist, but I'd say that I am 100% certain that a morally perfect, all-loving God who is also the God of Abraham as described in the Bible cannot exist, as he is internally inconsistent.

I'd say that it is perfectly possible that some other God exists, but since this God isn't interacting with me in any way that I can discern, I don't care if they exist.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
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_Amore
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Re: Definition of God

Post by _Amore »

Fence Sitter wrote:I do not believe in the existence of atheists.

Funny - me too!
A-theism - when there are so many books on Atheism? :lol:
Atheism - a herd mentality based on rejecting theist herd mentality? :lol:
A-theist - who never bothers to define exactly what base by which they have made an organization of denial? :lol:

The Bible lists over 800 definitions or attributes of God. Islam lists about 100 - many paradoxical and one being there are no words to describe God. Monks have spent their entire lives trying to figure out God. Einstein only dreamt of it. And yet some self-proclaimed Atheists so confidently state there is no God. Are they not making themselves out to be god-like to pretend to be so all-knowing to deny truth, love and other definitions of God?

Also, “All have faith, but not all are conscious of having faith.”
_Amore
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Re: Definition of God

Post by _Amore »

Gadianton wrote:I don't know man, metaphysics is really technical now, with all kinds of symbolic modal logic and everything. And not just for God, but physicalist positions also. Science types don't like this and just say it's all hogwash, but the question is, can they really pose an alternative without ending up doing the same thing but less sophisticated? I think a lot of philosophers would be willing to throw metaphysics out the window if someone can come up with something better. Until then, people just do metaphysics without realizing it, even as they dismiss it.

The placebo effect is undeniable. Belief has physiological effect. Thus, I see this as part of the “logical” reason to believe in God. And as Carl Jung said, belief in an afterlife is psychologically hygienic.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Definition of God

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Amore wrote:And as Carl Jung said, belief in an afterlife is psychologically hygienic.


Source?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Physics Guy
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Re: Definition of God

Post by _Physics Guy »

fetchface wrote:I'm more of an apatheist, but I'd say that I am 100% certain that a morally perfect, all-loving God who is also the God of Abraham as described in the Bible cannot exist, as he is internally inconsistent.

With this I agree. But it's weird, you know? On a thread in this forum we recently saw some verses from Leviticus which command stoning to death of any two men who have sex with each other, on the ground that this is "abominable" even though it's impossible to see what harm it could do—what difference of any kind it could make to anyone else—if the two men involved both considered it good.

And yet then the next week in church I heard readings from Leviticus in which "the Lord" says not to delay paying a worker by even one night, and forbids cursing the deaf or tripping the blind because even though they might not hear or see you doing it, the Lord will.

The Old Testament can be a really inspiring moral text, if you're prepared to call it out for being absolute crap.
_Analytics
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Re: Definition of God

Post by _Analytics »

Physics Guy wrote:Are you sure that you are applying a reasonable standard for a concept this difficult? I don't think there is a single definition of quantum gravity that is well-defined, coherent, plausible, and refers to something that can rightly be called quantum gravity. Nonetheless I'm pretty sure that there is some way in which quantum mechanics and gravitation reconcile themselves. So I'm willing to accept that vague definitions like "some kind of quantum theory that includes gravity," which would seem to fall into your category 1), can still be pointing to a real thing even though they're not very articulate.


Hmmm. I know that simple people tend to have a very simple conception of God, and brilliant believers tend to have sophisticated, "difficult" conceptions of God. Does this mean that the concept of God is inherently "difficult" and most His believers just don't get how difficult it is, or does it mean that sophisticated people need to set up sophisticated mental gymnastic routines in order to rationalize their faith?

If you made a Venn diagram that divides the universe into things I know and don't know, then what I know is a tiny circle. I have no doubt that there are difficult concepts that are answers to questions I haven't even thought of. I'm open to the possibility that "God" is in that space of unknown unknowns. But that doesn't change the fact that I'm not going to believe in "God" until God is coherently defined and convincing evidence for His/Her/Its existence is presented.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
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