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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:05 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
moksha wrote:
Could this mean that Dr. Midgley has performed the Dark Sacrament and commended Gemli to the Danites?

:lol: Is that a euphemism for baptism for the dead??

The Dark Sacrament is a prayer offered to Sithis to have an assassin's guild member, such as a Danite, terminate someone who has angered the prayee through posts on Sic et Non or having one of those new Maxwellites horning in on your legacy parking space.

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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:32 am 
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This isn’t gemli, but rather a new poster who seems full of fierce support for the Tag Team, Midgley and DP. It seems so, but then I read this comment by him, left yesterday on a two-year old blog entry, one of the MANY DP wrote about his ouster from Maxwell:

MilePost2020 a day ago wrote:
Well written and to the point. Bravo Dan Peterson on emerging, not only unscathed, but without a hint of desire for retribution. From what I can determine, typically, the only time you discuss the events of 2012 are to clarify and to correct the incorrect or clouded descriptions of others. If only all of humanity were capable of your restraint, I believe wars and conflicts would diminish remarkably.

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/danp ... 4579581040

Hmm... I’m getting more than a touch of Poe-ness, here. Is this a supporter or not?


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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:35 pm 
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I'd have to say "yes" on MilePost, given some of the longer posts he's made. That would be quite an effort of misdirection.

While this thread isn't the best place for it, I'd like to congratulate VelhoBurrinho on receiving his Ph.D.. He is now Dr. VelhoBurrinho. A Ph.D. is a great achievement and adds significant credibility to his posts. I suppose he can fill the gap somewhat now that we've lost Dr. Detroit to a hair-trigger banning.

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FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:06 am 
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Do they really call him "vegan burrito"?

From Google I learn that "velho burrinho" is Portugese for "old donkey" and that the name seems to be a reference to a story that Brazilian kids learn in primary school. I can't blame Peterson and Midgley for not knowing every language but it's bizarre that people who do know more than one laguage would react to unfamiliar syllables like, well, rubes.


Last edited by Physics Guy on Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:24 am 
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Physics Guy wrote:
Do they really call him "vegan burrito"?

From Google I learn that "velho burrinho" is Portugese for "old donkey" and that the name seems to be a reference to a story that Brazilian kids learn in primary school. I can't blame Peterson and Midgely for not knowing every language but it's bizarre that people who do know more than one laguage would react to unfamiliar syllables like, well, rubes.

Yes, they really do call him that. DP makes sure to use the name in most responses to him, and he got Midgley started doing it also. It’s ironic that one of the Peter Pan posts, regularly touted by Peterson, makes a huge deal about Neville calling BOMC ‘knoWhys’ by another name- ‘No-Wise.’ It was said to be “childish,” and Pan reveled in finally getting Neville to stop it.

Bottom line is Peterson is paid by the clicks. He gets paid to be a rude, childish, outrageous rube, because it’s only that that gets noticed, not any of his content. Well, except for his plagiarized content. I really think that’s why he knowingly plagiarizes—for the attention. There can be no other reason for being so stupidly and obviously dishonest.


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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:25 am 
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DCP claims that he knew what the name meant from the first time he saw it.

Perhaps, however, he'll be more respectful now, as it's been revealed Mr. Burrinho has attained a Ph.D. and is rightfully called Dr. Burrinho.

Lemmie wrote:
Yes, they really do call him that. DP makes sure to use the name in most responses to him, and he got Midgley started doing it also.


Does Mr. Midgley have any kind of personal identity at all? We're seeing this over and over -- matters farthest from his mind are suddenly central to civil society, as soon as he hears it from DCP.

- anonymous posting, which has never affected Midgley, now makes Midgley the angriest, because he heard if from DCP.
- DCP's original sarcasm regarding "Dr. Shades" sent Midgley into conspiracy mode over "phony doctors".
- DCP's insinuations that world travel makes himself better than others has been taken to the radical extreme by Midgley.
- DCP castigating Gemli as a "meat unit" has been taken to the utter extreme by Midgley
- DCP's fanatic, trivial relationship between God and morality has also been adopted by Mr. Midgley, even though Midgley's own moral philosophy, substantially influenced by postmodernism, is totally at odds with it.

I'm sure there are many more examples, but a full list should be compiled one day. As I've said before, I'd really like to know if Midgley was a big world traveler before he met DCP.

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FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:32 pm 
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Quote:
Does Mr. Midgley have any kind of personal identity at all? We're seeing this over and over -- matters farthest from his mind are suddenly central to civil society, as soon as he hears it from DCP.

- anonymous posting, which has never affected Midgley, now makes Midgley the angriest, because he heard if from DCP.
- DCP's original sarcasm regarding "Dr. Shades" sent Midgley into conspiracy mode over "phony doctors".
- DCP's insinuations that world travel makes himself better than others has been taken to the radical extreme by Midgley.
- DCP castigating Gemli as a "meat unit" has been taken to the utter extreme by Midgley
- DCP's fanatic, trivial relationship between God and morality has also been adopted by Mr. Midgley, even though Midgley's own moral philosophy, substantially influenced by postmodernism, is totally at odds with it.

I'm sure there are many more examples, but a full list should be compiled one day. As I've said before, I'd really like to know if Midgley was a big world traveler before he met DCP.

Wow, just wow.......how wrong I have been about Midget! I have short changed him and for that I apologize on my knees begging for his forgiveness. I apologize personally to you Lou. Here I thought you were shooting for merely being mini-me Jehovah, but your sights were so vastly much higher and more important in trying to be a mini-me Peterson! My gosh the intellect! The wide sighted vision and grander context you had than I had supposed. The incredible celestial accomplishment of being a mini-me Peterson than a secondary lesser important mini-me Jehovah just escaped me entirely. And for that since your grander vision than I had supposed puts me entirely to shame, forgive me my good brother. May your celestial reward increase by 1354,234.876 extra kingdoms to reign and rule over, and at the very least, another and extra 564,8978,000 celestial wives in which you can spend eternity populating your own universe to watch over like big brother, and if they ever assume false screen names as you see on this lowly conniving little snivvling planet of Jehovah's we are stuck on, you can, as their Lord and Majesty, defeat them all! You will have the spiritual capacity to DOX THEM ALL! The boundless eternal joy and peace in your soul and your soul alone is worth all the trouble!

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:02 am 
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Gadianton wrote:
I'd have to say "yes" on MilePost, given some of the longer posts he's made. That would be quite an effort of misdirection.

While this thread isn't the best place for it, I'd like to congratulate VelhoBurrinho on receiving his Ph.D.. He is now Dr. VelhoBurrinho. A Ph.D. is a great achievement and adds significant credibility to his posts. I suppose he can fill the gap somewhat now that we've lost Dr. Detroit to a hair-trigger banning.
was Dr. Detroit banned after this exchange? Maybe before he could post the examples he referenced?
Quote:
DanielPeterson >> Dr. Shades
6 days ago edited

Worry about your own backyard, Shades.

While you're concerned about matters here, your message board is a vile cesspool of obsessive and often slanderous personal hatred.

Nothing like that happens here. Nothing like that would be permitted here.


−—
Dr. Detroit >> DanielPeterson
6 days ago

Dan wrote: "While you're concerned about matters here, your message board is a vile cesspool of obsessive and often slanderous personal hatred. Nothing like that happens here. Nothing like that would be permitted here."

Dan, with all due respect, nothing could be further from the truth. If you doubt what I say, please let me provide you with several examples of "obsessive and often slanderous personal hatred" from your own board. Okay?


−—
DanielPeterson >> Dr. Detroit
6 days ago

I'm already familiar with what happens on my blog, drdet. And I'm very well aware of what happens over at Mr. Shades's sty.

So don't bother.

Besides, you're not even remotely credible on the topic: "nothing could be further from the truth"

I've been the principal single target at Shades's toxic swamp for something like a decade and a half. I know what I'm talking about.

I don't want any of that here. I won't permit it to come here.

You and the other fake doctors should be grateful that I permit you to play here as much as I do.


−—
Dr. Detroit >> DanielPeterson
6 days ago

Dan, are you okay with me quoting examples only from Sic et Non, and we can let the readers judge for themselves the content you've allowed, and continue to allow here?

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4583691732



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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:57 am 
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Slanderous only because he thinks anything ever disagreed with what he writes is personally about him, when the vast majority of posts here are concerning his ideas, what he teaches at Sic et Non, not about him personally. :rolleyes:

That he fails to be able to distinguish that tells me a ton about his actual intellectual capacity. Now That might be considered offensive, slanderous, what have you, but I stand by it based on his last decade of performance.

Again, it is not about Peterson himself or even his sidekick the trolling Midget (Someone get him a screen play and acting job, he would rock!), it's about the incoherent nonsense they post imagining it is valuable information and based on reality that we respond here to him. He thinks respect for him should be automatic, and if not shown then everything is slanderous. What a clown way of thinking. IT ISN'T ABOUT YOU PERSONALLY. It's the idiotic Mormon biased thinking you cannot even see you have but imagine all people ought to think the same ways as you do. How many blinkerin times does he have to be told this???

It's about what you (Dan Peterson) interpret as truth and reality when, in fact, we KNOW you actually KNOW better, but the money you get is more important than the truth. To hobnob with the old phogies in charge of the church is more important to you and so you write only what they agree to believe. Even Hamblin recognized and had the guts to call them out and tell the truth. All else you slur, goof up, misdirect, misquote, plagiarize and whatever else silly you insist on doing imagining you are actually doing the work of the Lord. :rolleyes: You fool no one who actually uses their intellectual capacities to work through your logic, which for 95% of the time is so illogical that it's a forehead slapping moment.

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:19 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
To hobnob with the old phogies in charge of the church is more important to you and so you write only what they agree to believe. Even Hamblin recognized and had the guts to call them out and tell the truth.

Wait, WHAT?? Please tell me where and when this happened.

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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:22 am 
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Quote:
gemli >> Louis Midgley
an hour ago

“No one on Dan's blog has claimed that anyone's views on what gemli calls "religion" were frozen when they were adolesents”

—Louis Midgley

“And your understanding of religious thinking is frozen at an early adolescent level.”

--DanielPeterson,,

in the comment immediately preceding mine.

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/danp ... 4585004385
:rolleyes: midgley’s habit of mimicry is getting him in trouble.


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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:28 pm 
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I hate to butt in to the conversation in the comment section, but if someone in comments is reading this, could you CFR Mr. Midgley on the names of the books his dad gave him that his professors didn't have access to?

This is another one of those odd claims of his that make no sense.

a Jr. Apologist wrote:
Nope! The difference is that Professor Midgley didn't dismiss, in toto and immediately out-of-hand, what those teachers taught him. Rather, he used it as a scaffolding upon which he added his own first-hand experience to build something which is more representative of the entire picture.


Not so. Midgley has been pretty clear that growing up his thinking was completely subordinate to his father. He's said before that nothing he ever thought or did "disappointed" his father's stringent expectations to sustain the thinking of the Brethren. This thread is yet another example of his brainwashing at home, where father exerted his iron grip on son even during college years, with books that son's professors "didn't have access to". It sounds to me like these books were probably the equivalent of what "Darwin's Dilemma" is today -- which explains why his professors were not only unaware of, but not likely to be updated by the contents.

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FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:32 pm 
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Zzyzx wrote:
Well, yes, I've heard you say that before. But if this is the only place you comment, how can you say you're not singling us out?


Gemli wrote:
If I were to stumble upon an oasis in a desert, I might stay for a while. But I wouldn't say I was singling it out.


lol. Brilliant, Gemli.

And here comes Mr. Mean Spirited:

Quote:
I wonder if gemli was given the boot from the New York Times, where he held some record for posting his his dazzling comments. (Sarcasm intended.) And then he came to Dan's blog where he has, I believed far exceeded his record at the New York Times. Currently he has posted 5893 "comments." I suspect that this amounts to just a tad bit more than merely singling us out. He turns up and blasts away at our faith, but he "wouldn't say I was singling it out." It meaning our faith, which disinterests him. I will let gemli tell us which branch of what science might be able to figure out what is behind his obsessive compulsion, and also possible modes of treatment. He will, he has recently told us, disappear in a puff of black smoke, if Dan suggests he is not our very own prize lovable pet Village Atheist. Such are the ways of a Caliban who struts his stuff on Dan's blog.


This is what's so funny, although Physic's Guy already mentioned it; Gemli appears to intentionally remain ignorant of Mormonism and Mormon claims. He's most certainly NOT singling out Mormon faith and NOT blasting away specifically at Mormon faith. He's both arguing for and defending atheism and also defending science from religious infection. His interest is theism and pseudoscience in general. He has no interest in condemning Mormonism in particular at all. It just so happens that that this particular blog is composed of Mormon apologists who spend most of their time now dwelling on secularism.

The day Gemli actually does follow up on Mormon-specific claims and give his opinion on them the SeN readership will go into cardiac arrest and he'll get banned in short order.

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FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:09 pm 
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Quote:
Midget twirped
I will let gemli tell us which branch of what science might be able to figure out what is behind his obsessive compulsion, and also possible modes of treatment.


This from a man who obsessed over Fawn Brodie for decades, and wrote thousands of pages of reviews of her books in the FARMS Review and never got off her as the subject nor who she hung out with and who she learned from! Has Midget yet gotten off or over the Countercult ministries of Protestant Evangelicalism which he has harangued for almost a century now?

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:09 pm 
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Quote:
Such are the ways of a Caliban who struts his stuff on Dan's blog.


A Caliban? God, this Louis C. Midgey can't even contextualize an insult well. Is he actually trying to insult Gemil by calling him "a Caliban?"

Caliban loved his mother.

Caliban was unusually well spoken and incredibly bright.

Or is The Midge suggesting Gemli is Caliban, the black slave in rebellion against his white master, a metaphor for the atheist acting out against his theistic masters?

No no no. Tsk tsk. There's no way Louis C. Midgey is that subtle or clever. Much like his decades long 'academic' career, he's much too heavy-handed and oafish to utilize a smart reference as an insult.

Nope. The Midge thought by calling Gemli 'a Caliban' he would invoke this imagery:

Image

or this

Image

I think The Midge thinks it's appropriate to insult an able-bodied person with imagery of a disabled or disfigured person.

This is the Mormon church. This is a BYU professor. This is a priesthood holder.

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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:14 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
This is the Mormon church. This is a BYU professor. This is a priesthood holder.

- Doc

And man, look how the ugly flows so effortlessly out of his keyboard.

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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:27 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
This is the Mormon church. This is a BYU professor. This is a priesthood holder.

- Doc

And man, look how the ugly flows so effortlessly out of his keyboard.

OK now.....lets be fair and gather some context here. It's ugly flow all right, but with the Priesthood with which he holds, the ugly is holy, and holy is beautiful, so in this fair sense, the ugly is coded into the beautiful, thanks be to God the Holy Father who has given us our faith in Him. In this sense, the sense that surely a priesthood holder more than likely means, the judgment of ugly is quite immature, because ugly is just another way of saying beautiful because the priesthood turns mud to gold through the holder and his faith in righteousness and greatness soon to be since Godhood is just to be had in time measure equivalent to the twinkling of an eye. Since time flies so fast, even the ugly is truly the beautiful and so Midgley has not made ugly flow, but beauty hidden for which the game is fun to find for all the rest of us. So see? No sin! No problem! Midgley is truly spouting his vast love through the ugly flow via priesthood channels of proper authority from God his Holy Father for whom Midgley loves and emulates, so in reality the earthly ugly is the most vast astonishing beautiful ever read by the eyes of man and woman, since, like the scriptures which are blessing in Mormonism with priesthood interpretation, and hence beautiful, which means in all reality ugly is beautiful since it warms the bosom of Midget to type such stuff, because he is enamoured with his own ugly, which is reflected in the mirror of the priesthood into beauty, so therefore he continues typing the ugly which is quite beautiful because of the priesthood thingy of which Midgley is the rather proud owner of, so really what this means is that everything Midgley types is beautiful, spiritual and priesthood worthy, only reflecting a non-real ugly because the prism of reality is warped without a priesthood holder in righteousness, so that we can stand all amazed at the great beauty that ugly is.

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:40 am 
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This isn’t gemli, but it’s in a thread where midgley is worried that gemli has “gone missing.” I can think of a different reason gemli isn’t responding to this:

Quote:
One does not "win" arguments by merely defining words in such a way that one can declare oneself the winner....

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/danp ... 4601378906

:lol: I AGREE. Mormon apologists have changed the definitions of words more times than I have ever seen in any other context, in my entire life. (Translation, anyone?) Midgley is blowing their cover here.


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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:17 am 
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Again, gemli responds appropriately to midgley’s nonsense, which of course contains midgley’s obligatory bathroom references:
Quote:
Louis Midgley gemli
a day ago edited

So you will continue to stink up Dan's blog until he gives you the boot?

I am confident that faithful Latter-day Saints who visit and/or post on Dan's blog would be delighted if they never saw your handle again. Now there are a few--Fred Kratz or Noel H., for instance, who might love to see you constantly posting up a storm on Dan's blog.

The reason is that they also take advantage of the fact that Latter-day Saint are almost always nice people who will tolerate a great deal of flatus.

Dan and I have been trying to talk a nice reasonable Latter-day Saint woman into not leaving his blog because of you and people like Fred Kratz. She asked Kratz if his mother failed to teach him any manners.

I strongly urge you to shift to a certain disgusting board where anything goes, and the worst the better. Or better still, find an atheist board or blog that would celebrate your rubbish.

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gemli Louis Midgley
a day ago

You might have noticed that I don't attack people. I try not to insult them personally, use words like "rubbish," tell them their presence is like a foul stench or make up fictitious biographies from fragments of personal information that they have revealed about themselves.


I respond to ideas, and mostly I defend the mainstream scientific view regarding evolution, abiogenesis, the existence of miracles, deities, disembodied consciousness, afterlives and the like. These are ideas that everyone runs into, whether they're religious or not. But I'd have no problem leaving if Dan asked.
6
Reply
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... -news.html


It continues to surprise me that SeN allows midgley’s comments to stand. Gemli’s followers, almost certainly not LDS, are getting an eyeful of online Mormon behavior.


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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:58 am 
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I can't help but think of Teruo Nakamura when I read some of Dr.Midgley's responses.

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 Post subject: Re: more of gemli's gems
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:46 pm 
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Over on the "Oklahoma" thread, Allan "The Dales weren't trying to prove the Book of Mormon true" Wyatt has dropped in to confront Gemli. He, Kiwi, Mr. Migdley, and a bunch of others keep repeating themselves to Gemli, that he needs to learn something about LDS faith before he can criticize it. Do these folks realize that Gemli didn't swoop in to criticize the "LDS faith", but to criticize the blog proprietor's theistic propaganda memes, most if not all, recycled from non-LDS sources and having nothing to do with Mormonism specifically? Do Mormons even know who Alvin Plantinga is or would they even care?

But man, they won't let this go. Gemli just has to learn about LDS beliefs, for some reason.

Mr. Midgley wrote:
But how would gemli know what "every believer" thinks gemli needs to know, since he essentially knows nothing about the faith of any Christian believer? gemli spouts rubbish about something he knows next to nothing about. We have been trying to educate him but he refuses to learn a thing. Still, we keep trying, since doing this is part of our faith.


Gemli wrote:
Do they keep you locked in a tower in an iron mask? Or are you simply unaware of the pervasive flood of religious claims, proscriptions, requirements, rituals, beliefs, demands, political lobbies and embarrassments?


LOL!

Mr. Midgley wrote:
gemli is now desperate, and has stooped to sarcasm. Poor gemli.


He's really biting his tongue over there. Did he misunderstand DCP's behind-the-scenes crackdown on his bad behavior? He can trash Gemli all he wants since Gemli isn't part of this board. Funny though, since unbeknownst to Gemli, he really is on lock-down, and since he can't insult, now he's all, "just look at you stoop to sarcasm like this. what a shame."

There's a .01% chance Gemli will read this, but if so, Gemli, don't fall for it. Don't let them teach you anything about Mormonism. Over here, many of us were Mormons for much of our lives, served missions, went to BYU and all that, but they don't think even *we* know anything about Mormonism. I suppose I'm idly curious, should you show interest in their "faith", what would they teach you? Do they themselves, actually have any firm beliefs that they'd put on record online?

_________________
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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