Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

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Gadianton
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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Gadianton »

What an ego, huh? It was obvious that Lane was referring to C.S. Lewis but somebody had to make themselves the center of attention again.
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero

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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Physics Guy »

Yeah, sheesh. The blog entry on which all these posts were comments was a long quote from C.S. Lewis, and the title of the entry was "Interesing thoughts from C.S. Lewis ...".

Maybe Midgley didn't know that Lewis, who never earned a doctoral degree and wrote most of his books as an untitled Oxford don, did eventually get a professorial chair by moving for it to Cambridge. Midgley might have guessed, though, that a reference to "Lewis" in a comment on a blog entry about C.S. Lewis was more likely to be about C.S. Lewis than about Louis Midgley.

Thinking about it more, in fact, this is one of those slips that looks less like egotism to me and more like cognitive decline. It just makes too little sense. I'm feeling again that we should stop calling out Midgley because he's just not fully responsible any more. Not only do the gears sometimes slip; it must also be maddening to be frequently confused when they do, and horrifying to suspect what is happening. That's enough to shorten anyone's temper.

It was an interesting Lewis quote. From what I know about the history of early science, Lewis was quite right to call magic the stillborn twin of science, inasmuch as science and magic were both about pursuing strange thoughts, and undertaking precise and peculiar activities, in the quest to gain power over nature. Keynes maybe put the same thought more pithily by calling Isaac Newton "not the first of the age of reason" but rather "the last of the magicians". Newton wrote tons more about alchemy and esoteric Bible interpretation than he ever did about science. Keynes knew that because he bought a bunch of those Newton documents at an auction one time.

The quest for power, as opposed to the disinterested search for truth, isn't something that science has ever outgrown. Most scientists to this day are quite eager to find practical applications, and those who work on subjects that don't offer many practical applications usually admit this as a drawback to their fields. The whole scientific emphasis on empirical testing was never only epistemological. It was always practical. Making something work in the lab is a good way to test an idea, but making something work in the lab is also the first step towards putting it to work in the kitchen.

What I don't get is Lewis's apparent conclusion that this magic-like lust for power is a congenital moral taint for which science ought to repent. I don't buy for a moment that the majority of humans have ever been content just to accommodate our souls to the way things are. Lewis thought that pre-modern wisdom was all about humbly doing that, but I think he was deluded by the fact that all he knew about the pre-modern era was writings by rich and privileged people who could afford to be complacent.

I think science and magic emerged together in western Europe during the 16th and 17th centuries because after the horrible wars and plagues of the European late Middle Ages, even rich people were desperate for power over nature. So they tried all kinds of desperate things, and some worked. Stringent quality control to discard ideas that didn't work turned out to be important, and the difference between magic and science was getting that message. That was pretty much the only difference between them, though. And so be it. I see no need to repent.

(Doctorates didn't use to be de rigeur for Anglo-Saxon academics until the vogue spread from Germany over the first half of the twentieth century. Lewis didn't catch the wave but in his day that just wasn't important.)

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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Gadianton »

Good thoughts, Physic's Guy, Newton was a nut and the history of science isn't a clear-cut victory of truth over superstition, but it hardly needs to be to make some of the general points regarding the benefits of secularism.

Sympathetic magic isn't that different from basic science, the biggest difference between Newton finding correlations between objects falling by an indescribable force or figuring out the dates in the book of Daniel is that the next generation could pick it apart with controlled experimentation.

What the Sic et Non crowd doesn't get is that in the case of water dowsing, we don't care so much about the mystery of the forces at work but getting a rough idea of the causal arrow. Oddly, on that last dowsing thread, one of the Jr. guys out of the blue said he'd be up for controlled experiments for dowsing and DCP upvoted that comment. lol. This was after downvoting Gemli's ideas for creating a test scenario.

Where the big fail comes for the Sic et Non guys, though, is they're stuck on this island of personal witness for the sake of protecting their beliefs from the dangers on the mainland, but they aren't so hot on allowing others to share their island. Back when the first "sealed portion" came out in early 2000s, the apologists ridiculed its soft-spoken proponents on ZLMB. Midgley has dedicated a part of his life to whitewashing Maori lore in order to make it compatible with his precious Limited Geography Theory. The book of Mormon is a matter of personal faith, but if there's a chance to write a 12 part series on horses in America they'll take that over faith any day. They certainly reject the right for the Heartland crowd to have a testimony of the North America model. I defy them to show how Hartman Rector Jr's life of self-important faith as described by his daughter in the business of priesthood blessings and so on was any different than his bold support of the Heartland model.

And how supportive are they of John Pratt and the recovered plates of Gold? Do they remember the story of Snite the Jeweler? All of their blustering about the space for religion is for themselves and people they like only. For anyone else, prepare for the common-sense objectivity treatment Gemli is famous for.
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero

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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by moksha »

Physics Guy wrote:Not only do the gears sometimes slip; it must also be maddening to be frequently confused when they do, and horrifying to suspect what is happening.

On top of that, imagine reading on some other Mormon website that you passed away. That would have been sufficient for Dr. Midgley to exclaim, "Damn it, why didn't someone tell me?!"
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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Dr LOD »

Louis Midgley - I could post my report on Skinny to sic et non. Why not. God willing, I will do it. And Kiwi57 can report if I got anything right.

http://disq.us/p/276rzid

So does this mean the Skinny-L list still active in some form?

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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

Dr LOD wrote:
So does this mean the Skinny-L list still active in some form?


The Skinny-L list is bigger than ever, and it leaks like a sieve. I’ve enjoyed reading the emails.
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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Paloma »

I noticed that 'skinny' reference too.

Years ago, someone in the know (i.e. a Mormon from Provo as distinguished from myself, a non-LDS, non-American observer) suggested to me that the skinny-l was the real community and life-blood for its members. If there was any reason for a subset of LDS believers (maybe apart from their source of employment) to remain tight with the Church and with each other, it was the camaraderie and mutual reinforcement enjoyed through this "club" where humour and (often, sadly) derision of 'others' were in abundance.

Sounds like a kind of partisanship ... a particularly ugly kind.

Maybe idolatry too.

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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Dr. Shades »

Paloma wrote:Sounds like a kind of partisanship ... a particularly ugly kind.

Maybe idolatry too.

Our own Philo Soffee was a member of that list for many years. Perhaps he can fill you in with a few details if you're interested.

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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Dr Exiled »

Where is this "Skinny-L" and how can it be accessed?
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by moksha »

Dr Exiled wrote:Where is this "Skinny-L" and how can it be accessed?

Pretty sure it is on the dark web and that to register you first have to perform various rituals that involve chicken entrails, being paddled by elders with dark hoods and robes, and drinking the nectar of Zaitan and dancing around in goat leggings. Finally, Grand Visier Midgley must draw a skinny L across your forehead with the blood of a poodle. After that, you just sign on with your usual password such as DPeterson666.
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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Dr Exiled »

moksha wrote:
Dr Exiled wrote:Where is this "Skinny-L" and how can it be accessed?

Pretty sure it is on the dark web and that to register you first have to perform various rituals that involve chicken entrails, being paddled by elders with dark hoods and robes, and drinking the nectar of Zaitan and dancing around in goat leggings. Finally, Grand Visier Midgley must draw a skinny L across your forehead with the blood of a poodle. After that, you just sign on with your usual password such as DPeterson666.


Thank god that's all I have to do ... knowing DCP and his penchant for ___ , I thought there would be some sort of real violation involved
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 

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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Gadianton »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:The Skinny-L list is bigger than ever, and it leaks like a sieve. I’ve enjoyed reading the emails.


I find this hard to believe. My understanding was that this list died years and years ago. What would they have to talk about anymore?
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero

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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by moksha »

Gadianton wrote:What would they have to talk about anymore?

Battle plans for retaking the Maxwell Institute, influencing Salt Lake HQ, devising a scheme to dismantle Cassius U, and proposed hit pieces for the Interpreter Top Scholastic Journal.
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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Wow, what the heck is Midgley talking about?:

Louis Midgley wrote:Or to write a book review without reading more than four and a half pages of chapter 33 of the second volume of Saints. My own reason for considering doing this is that the first those four and a half pages (and the related end notes) of that chapter are awful. So I am tempted to draw attention to a huge mistake on what I consider an important issue.

This might also give me the opportunity to correct some mistakes I have made a few times, since I have discovered that there is information available about which I was not previously aware.

What troubles me is that this volume was the product of a small army of presumably professional historians with the resources to track every bit published and unpublished material about a crucial topic and they botched it. Instead of drawing upon a very detailed and well written contemporary diary, they drew upon something written fifteen or more years after the event they describe. (This is, however, not nearly as bad as relying upon a letter wriiten seventy years after those events by someone who had just turned 12 when those events happened. And who was not a witness to those events.

I just came back from a Q&A about the forthcoming film that Professor Peterson has had a team busy filming on the Witnesses, all of which was very encouraging. After the meeting in Orem ended, I met several others who had served as missionaries in New Zealand, and who who were also furious about other problems in that volume that were much like what I discovered when I saw what that team of writers had included. I was also stunned to discover who they had vet what they had written. They could not have picked a less qualified person. For further reading they cited her work and another fellow who has been hostile to the Church of Jesus Christ for a very long time.
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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Lemmie »

Wow. Did someone hack his account?

Louis Midgley 3 days ago

We have had someone who posts as Little Old Donkey who once seems to have identified himself as a Lamanite, who now seems to have rejected that identity for reasons that are hardly rational.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4811570907

oh dear. Does he mean irrational reasons such as the Lamanites are characters in a fictional book?

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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Lemmie »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Wow, what the heck is Midgley talking about?:

Louis Midgley wrote:Or to write a book review without reading more than four and a half pages of chapter 33 of the second volume of Saints. My own reason for considering doing this is that the first those four and a half pages (and the related end notes) of that chapter are awful. So I am tempted to draw attention to a huge mistake on what I consider an important issue.

This might also give me the opportunity to correct some mistakes I have made a few times, since I have discovered that there is information available about which I was not previously aware.

What troubles me is that this volume was the product of a small army of presumably professional historians with the resources to track every bit published and unpublished material about a crucial topic and they botched it. Instead of drawing upon a very detailed and well written contemporary diary, they drew upon something written fifteen or more years after the event they describe. (This is, however, not nearly as bad as relying upon a letter wriiten seventy years after those events by someone who had just turned 12 when those events happened. And who was not a witness to those events.

I just came back from a Q&A about the forthcoming film that Professor Peterson has had a team busy filming on the Witnesses, all of which was very encouraging. After the meeting in Orem ended, I met several others who had served as missionaries in New Zealand, and who who were also furious about other problems in that volume that were much like what I discovered when I saw what that team of writers had included. I was also stunned to discover who they had vet what they had written. They could not have picked a less qualified person. For further reading they cited her work and another fellow who has been hostile to the Church of Jesus Christ for a very long time.

And again, this time on a different but still completely unrelated blog entry:

Louis Midgley • 31 minutes ago • edited

For reasons that I will not go into, it turned out that I was a bit late to the presentation and subsequent Q&A last evening. I loved the comments and the responses to questions, even though I could not hear the questions.

One question clearly was about whether there was any indication that the Brethren might have some concerns about a film in which every effort has been made to have all the sometimes grim details set out. The answer was for me very gratifying. The answer was an emphatic YES. One reason is that Professor Peterson's pet film project can do things that otherwise probably cannot be done.

I had three people come up to me and introduce themselves and indicate that they had one of their parents serve as missionaries to New Zealand shortly after I did in 1950. They also had raved about their missionary experiences to their children.

I also had several people complain to me about the first four and a half pages of chapter 33 of the second volume of Saints. This is a very brief and somewhat (and unnecessarily) garbled account of how Maori came to become Latter-day Saints. In the middle of this seriously garbled account of how William Bromley, the Mission President, and two other recent European converts to the Church of Jesus Christ were confronted by Hare Teimana, who had a visit by the Apostle Peter, who showed him in a vision those three European Latter-day Saints, and indicated that they were his authorized agents, they have exactly two brief sentences about a document dictated in 1881 by Paora Potangaroa to a scribe, that fit exactly our missionaries and their message that brought many Maori in one place in New Zealand into the Church of Jesus Christ.

Potangaroa was a famous Maori matakite (seer) who passed away in 1882, and then in 1883 our missionaries, who could not then speak or understand a word of Maori, and had never heard of Maori seers, turned up in that very area and were immediately seen by many who were aware of Potanagroa's famous "covenant" as bringing the Maori the true version of Christian faith.

Since the second volume of Saints ends in 1893, this is probably the only opportunity for that series to even mention the fact that nine Maori seers played an important part in bringing certain Maori into the Church of Jesus Christ. This has to be one of the most truly remarkable events in our entire history.

I must again point out that a certain person who posts as a Little Old Donkey, beginning in September of 2019, for four months of sic et non has insisted, among other things, that I invented all this and then tried to force the poor Maori Saints, either in 1950-1952 and/or 1999-2000, or more recently, to believe things that I dreamed up.

I also had people mention that they were deeply troubled by other very serious flaws in the second volume of Saints. I am now trying to figure out exactly how I will respond to the botching of what appears to me to be the only opportunity to set out the role of Maori seers in the amazing story of Maori becoming Latter-day Saints that will be possible in this projected four volume narrative history of the Church of Jesus Christ.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4816515564

[bolding in original]

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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Dr Exiled »

I've kind of missed Dr. Midgley's derisiveness of those he doesn't like and am glad he's back from New Zealand. The contrast in his behavior and how I envision or probably anyone envisions how christians should act is a sight to behold. I can't wait to hear of his journey and how he protected the New Zealand Maori myth from the secular devils that surely crossed his path while down there. These devils were probably waiting for him patiently, while he stopped off at a local ward to chide the members there for a bit for not wanting to wear the Lamanite moniker anymore, prior to his returning to battle.
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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Lemmie »

Dr Exiled wrote:I've kind of missed Dr. Midgley's derisiveness of those he doesn't like and am glad he's back from New Zealand. The contrast in his behavior and how I envision or probably anyone envisions how christians should act is a sight to behold. I can't wait to hear of his journey and how he protected the New Zealand Maori myth from the secular devils that surely crossed his path while down there. These devils were probably waiting for him patiently, while he stopped off at a local ward to chide the members there for a bit for not wanting to wear the Lamanite moniker anymore, prior to his returning to battle.

Yes, he’s really not a good example. He hunted up Gina Colvin’s husband, apparently:

Dr. Shades, he if he is at all honest, should report on his disgusting board that the Stake President soon located me and pointed out that Gina Colvin's husband, who has a Ph.D. in Political Science, wanted to meet me. He pointed to him in the huge gathering of Saints who were not at all inclined to leave that meeting place. And I subsequently had a truly remarkable conversation with Gina's husband about several things. I now have a new genuinely faithful Latter-day Saint friend in Christchurch.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4816541994

And this:

Louis Midgley Ike 2 days ago

I don't think I should comment on my candid conversation with Nathan, other than to say that he indicated that he agrees fully with what I have written about what I call the Maori Latter-day Saint historical narrative, and Gina detests what I and others have written about this crucial topic.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4814685695

Given Midgley’s propensity to exaggerate if not outright lie, I kind of doubt Gina’s husband fully agrees with Midgley.

And, given the title of is thread, I’ll just note that his bizarre retelling of Colvin’s life story and his repeated libeling of her character over the last couple of days is thoroughly unChristian.

For instance, where Maori Saints love the Book of Mormon, Gina detests it.

She started out as a naïve primitive believer. But her work on a Ph.D. thesis in journalism led her to read recent French philosophy, and this colonized her in a radically hostile worldview that has exactly no place for Maori things or the faith of the Saints.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4814685695

Gina Colvin, who once was a naïve faithful Latter-day Saint.

She worked out her apostasy on a blog call Kiwi Mormon. She has recently had her name removed from the the membership records of the Church of Jesus Christ, after she had become an Anglican lay preacher. Gina has subsequently become a member of the collapsing Community of Christ, which she thinks almost matches her own version of currently trendy "spirituality."

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4814441971

Since I have already mentioned Gina Colvin, I can report accurately that she is seeking a "spirituality" that also includes many of the recent social fads and fashions--that is genuinely Christian--but without any interest at all in the victory of God himself over all forms of death. Both Gina and the Community of Christ Apostle with whom she met in Independence admitted that they give essentially no attention to what follows our eventual death. Their attention was focused instead on really crucial "Christian" issues such as same-sex encounters.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4815736176

I change my opinion, nobody hacked Midgley’s account. That’s exactly how the gossipy little prick attacks people who he perceives as disagreeing with him. What a disgusting brat. If he were 10 he’d be grounded, and marched over to Gina’s house to offer an apology. What do you do with an 80 year old who acts like this?

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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Lemmie »

A question. What does Midgley mean when he says Colvin started out as “a naïve primitive believer” ???

Why are Maori people who are LDS believers defined by Midgley as “naïve,” and “primitive”?

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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by moksha »

Lemmie wrote:
Midgley wrote:Dr. Shades, he if he is at all honest, should report on his disgusting board that the Stake President soon located me and pointed out that Gina Colvin's husband, who has a Ph.D. in Political Science, wanted to meet me. I don't think I should comment on my candid conversation with Nathan, other than to say that he indicated that he agrees fully with what I have written about what I call the Maori Latter-day Saint historical narrative, and Gina detests what I and others have written about this crucial topic.

Given Midgley’s propensity to exaggerate if not outright lie, I kind of doubt Gina’s husband fully agrees with Midgley.

My guess is that Dr. Midgley contacted the Stake President and asked for the introduction so as to further his Project Sink Gina troublemaking adventure. If you hear any feedback from the Colvins, please let us know. I can well imagine what poisoned bits of sharkmeat Dr. Midgley left in the water at that Stake.
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Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x

Post by Tom »

In a February 15-16 Facebook post, Dr. Colvin shared her thoughts about her husband’s visit at church with Dr. Midgley. The comments are also worth reading.

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