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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:51 am 
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Dr Moore wrote:
LOL Philo.

[SNIP!]

The church as an institution looks a lot like a business - it has many of the same operational and governance issues for instance - and it will have no choice but to adapt likewise.

Wow someone with brains is doing some incredibly interesting things! I hope this pans out, it sounds fascinating!

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:36 pm 
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It came close, but it does appear that Dr. Peterson is refusing to take the final step and combine the words "I'm" and "sorry" followed by "for wrongly calling you a baldfaced liar."

My last post to that particular comment thread is below.


Dr Moore wrote:
| [Kiwi57] However they might work in your mind, they don't represent an admission from Professor Midgley's pen. That's the point.

That is your opinion and I respectfully disagree.

Dr. Midgley has also made it clear that he has made no such admission. So has Dr. Peterson. I acknowledge as sincere all 3 of your statements. And I respectfully disagree.

As this topic appears to hold no room for constructive discussion or learning, this will be my last post to the thread. I maintain my position that the Prying article was a hit piece, and you maintain that my position is utterly invalid. Noted.

Lastly, by your silence on the terms, am I to assume that you are opting out of the $1,000 charity donation offered as a reward for your apology on the matter of the banning glitch?

Cheers,
Dr. Moore

To the skeptics, I concede your experience beat my hopes for a bridge to greater civility. You nasty cesspool denizens might not want to change. But I guess you can all sleep peacefully knowing that neither will "they."

You all said the conclusion would be the same: immovable object meets irresistible force.

I tried.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:43 pm 
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Dr Moore wrote:
You nasty cesspool denizens might not want to change. But I guess you can all sleep peacefully knowing that neither will "they."

What the hell?!?


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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:59 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Dr Moore wrote:
You nasty cesspool denizens might not want to change. But I guess you can all sleep peacefully knowing that neither will "they."

What the hell?!?

LOL. Sarcasm Lemmie! You know I love every one of you just as you are.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:35 pm 
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That's how I took it Dr. Moore, no worries, it's all good.

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:39 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
That's how I took it Dr. Moore, no worries, it's all good.

:lol: I kind of like hanging out with my "nasty cesspool denizens," philo. Far less boring than the alternative!


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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:51 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
That's how I took it Dr. Moore, no worries, it's all good.

:lol: I kind of like hanging out with my "nasty cesspool denizens," philo. Far less boring than the alternative!


Don't forget me too. I'm the nastiest and poopiest denizen in the whole cesspool.

I'm the worst one here.

:twisted:

:lol:

PS: Daniel C Peterson is so FAT he should be paying for two seats every time he flies. He damn sure better not sit next to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:52 pm 
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Physics Guy wrote:
"By your own admission" is not a completely clear issue. If Midgley admitted to having done things that amounted to writing a hit piece then it would be reasonable to say that he had admitted to writing a hit piece even if he never said so explicitly in so many words. "I shot the sheriff" is an admission of attempted murder even though it doesn't say, "I attempted murder."

So I don't think Dr Moore has any need to acknowledge his "by your own admission" as objectively false. Whether Midgley's descriptions of his own actions were tantamount to admission to writing a hit piece or not is a judgement call upon which people can honestly differ.


This is a good point. It reminds me of the case where "Not one dime of my salary comes from apologetics" actually means, "I *do* get payment for apologetics, but it doesn't come via the same channels as my normal salary."

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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:11 pm 
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Quote:
Louis Midgley > baxter999 • 5 hours ago

Baxter:

You should be awed by the Book of Mormon has more than a little suspicious of its critics. Hauglid joins Dan Vogel, Brent Metcalf and Chris Smith. And Robin Jensen boasts that he does not know or care where Hauglid got his ideas. And who he has now joined. Amazing.

I hope that you were at the FM conference and heard and witnessed the amazing presentation by Brian Hales on the alternative explanations of the Book of Mormon. It was a game changer. Dan even quoted me as saying this in his blog message at that conference. Brian explained to me earlier what he would be doing in his presentation. He had read my essay entitled "Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon," in that still very valuable book edited by Noel Reynolds. I tried to distinguish the different and also radically inconsistent attempts to explain how we have the Book of Mormon. And then show how the contradict each other, and none of them can account for all that is known about the recovery and contents of the Book of Mormon except one. Brian has gone much further than I did.


Man, what a garbled pastiche of words and sentences. I have no idea how Mr. Peterson continues to allow The Midge to make a fool of himself on SeN.

Anyway. So I looked for this 'game changer' titled, "Supernatural or Supernormal? Scrutinizing Secular Sources for the Book of Mormon" and couldn't find a transcript. I did see someone mentioning it's a presentation that's been given a handful of times before, but I'm unable to find anything.

If it's a game changer why isn't the transcript available on FairMoron?

So. I punt to you fine folks. Can you find a link or transcript?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:00 pm 
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Dr. Cam,

It's hard to follow such rambling, but am I'm I right in reading that Lou Midgley is once again taking credit for something epic?

Tell me where I misstep:

- At the Fair Mormon conference, Brian Hales gave a presentation on alternative explanations of the book of Mormon.
- DCP, at the conference, announced that Hale's work was a "game changer".
- As it turns out, Midgley is the one who called the work a "game changer", at SeN, and DCP was quoting him.
- But, in a plot twist, it turns out that Brian Hales had read Lou Midgley's essay from some FARMs book a long time ago.
- Brian Hales developed those essential ideas that were Midgley's all along.

In other words, Midgley has just announced that his own work is a "game changer".

Folks, as a Stake President of mine once said, "you just can't make this stuff up."

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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:18 pm 
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Have not seen the text or video.

From the title it appears to be a refutation of certain secular theories for the origin of the Book of Mormon. By “game changer” are we to assume Hales has uncovered new evidence which proves these theories false? In other words, he proves a negative?

If so that would be newsworthy. Endeavors to prove a negative usually fall well short of changing any games. Such as proving no God, no aliens, or that BYU is incapable of winning a national football championship again.

To be balanced in fairness, for that matter, however much someone may believe Joseph made it all up, it is a high bar indeed to prove that he didn’t see God in the grove, see real words in the seer stone, or acquiesce to the visitation of an angel with a drawn sword.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:50 pm 
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Dr Moore wrote:
... see real words in the seer stone...


If only the spell checker wasn't glitching for those 90 days...

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:58 pm 
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Quote:
But, in a plot twist, it turns out that Brian Hales had read Lou Midgley's essay from some FARMs book a long time ago.
- Brian Hales developed those essential ideas that were Midgley's all along.

In other words, Midgley has just announced that his own work is a "game changer".

I can't help but ask in all sincerity, a game changer for who? Were a paper like this to be a game changer, the evidence to be able to raise it so high aloft would be demonstrated by Brent Lee Metcalfe, Dan Vogel, Paul Osborne, Kevin Graham, and Kerry Shirts to see it so obvious that we all jump back into activity in the church and begin to bear testimony it is true after all. If that kind of evidence was in existence, then it can be legitimately be called a game changer. If the entire faculty of the University of Chicago were to hold a symposium and read the paper, and the entire faculty converted to Mormonism due to this game changing thing, then it could be raised so high aloft as to be called a legitimate game changer. If 100,100,100 people read this and came to recognize it as the legitimate truth, that would raise this to a game changer. But if it just helps already confirm biases held by apologists? Not so much. :rolleyes:

Instead of Lou Midgley crowing how great Lou Midgley is, it would be a much more profound credibility if Robert Ritner read it and converted and called it "a game changer."

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:38 pm 
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Midgley in the comments also talks about Maori lore of not only seer stones but stones that chanted at people... Traditionally there were two of them, and they had names--hukatai and rehutai. They did not see words, but heard messages chanted to them so they could memorize them, or they say people or places and so forth.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... qus_thread

So we have rocks that teach English with all its syntax and nuances from a foreign language, and other traditions of talking rocks. The stuff that religion is made to rest upon is astounding. Can anyone at all find a way to test this? It is even more astounding that this is used to legitimize religious ideas and texts in our day. That is just breath taking! And actual grown and mature men with "real" Ph.ds believe this?!

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:46 pm 
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Dr Moore wrote:
Baby steps. You know what though, worth it. I feel like Kiwi57 and I could be friends. He's a tough nut for sure. One smart cookie.

I remember talking with Pahoran on another board and found him amiable. Once he is able to step outside his Captain Moroni Combat Armor and breath in this planet's atmosphere he becomes much more human.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:26 am 
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Pinning down exactly how the Book of Mormon got written is like pinning down exactly how an early illusionist vanished a lady on stage, in a small town in 1830, based on a combination of newspaper accounts and the performer's own advertising, without being sure which of those sources is which. And then if historians of magic do construct a likely theory, someone who believes in real magic makes objections like, "Whoa, how many people would just happen to be carrying around a tall, narrow curtain that would exactly fit this particular lady and also exactly match the backdrop curtain in this particular hall? Totally implausible explanation!"

Whether their deceptions are for crime or entertainment, deceivers go out of their way to prepare things that no-one expects. That's how deception succeeds. The trick relies on something that would ordinarily be so unlikely that it doesn't even occur to anyone to consider it. Trickery thrives because many such unlikely things are not actually hard to arrange if one sets out on purpose to do them. And then professional deceivers work further to conceal their methods and cover their tracks.

Of course that makes it quite unfair to ascribe the Book of Mormon to fraud. A hypothesis which assumes deliberate deception is inherently hard to disprove. Normal standards of plausibility don't apply any more, because most people don't carry around special curtains—but illusionists do. This gives Mormon apologists a horribly unfair uphill fight.

Apologists are stuck with an unfair uphill fight because they're defending an obvious fraud. So tough cookies for them.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:21 am 
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Physics Guy wrote:
Apologists are stuck with an unfair uphill fight because they're defending an obvious fraud. So tough cookies for them.

Well it’s not an obvious fraud to everyone.

That’s cool though. How boring would that be?

I can respect the honest testimony of any Mormon member. Just because their experience isn’t my own doesn’t make it less real for them.

What grinds my gears is when apologists wave their academic credentials around but clearly violate standards of good, honest scholarship.

When they selectively bend evidence to the left or right, in order to fit a predefined conclusion.

When the theories require contradicting mental gymnastics to barely qualify for a draw.

When they misapply scientific methodologies, don’t peer review with qualified non LDS scholars, and then present faith promoting results with the appearance of good science.

That is the obvious fraud.

That is why non LDS academics do not take Mormon apologist-scholars seriously. That is why there are such vocal critics. That is why some apologists, seeing the duplicity, quit and turn into outspoken critics.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:31 pm 
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I should not have said "obvious". It seems that way to most non-Mormons, but plenty of Mormons don't find it so.

What annoys me, though, is the way many Mormon apologists fail to take the fraud scenario seriously. They think they can dismiss it with ordinary appeals to plausibility: How could Smith have known X or had Y or done Z?

Con artists go out of their way to learn things that people won't expect them to know, to obtain materials that people won't expect them to have, to make friends that people won't expect them to ever have met. Highly implausible things that are just barely possible are the stock in trade of con artists. So once deliberate fraud is considered seriously, it's inherently extremely hard to rule out.

Ordinary history assumes that people only do plausible things, because con artists are thankfully rare. But even people who believe in genuine prophets should agree that genuine prophets are even rarer than con artists. So if we're supposed to take seriously the possibility that Smith was a prophet, then we should certainly take seriously the possibility that he was a con artist. And once that possibility is considered seriously, it's inherently hard to dismiss. That's the uphill battle that apologists cannot avoid.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:24 pm 
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When they selectively bend evidence to the left or right, in order to fit a predefined conclusion.

However, this is an apt description of all apologetics on every subject they write on. There are no other answers they are allowed whether discreetly or directly from the church, than the "faithful" ones, you know, the ones that are answered in a temple recommend interview? It's always Jesus, Joseph, Current prophet, church. Always in the right and always true. There are no other answers they are allowed to come to. Apologetics as a spiritual exercise is always preordained with its answers. Only the footnotes are allowed to differ.

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:37 pm 
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Dr Moore wrote:
Well it’s not an obvious fraud to everyone.

Of course it isn't an obvious fraud to everyone. Cognitive dissonance theory explains this well. One has to look at as an outsider would, trying real hard to escape the believing bias that was tattooed on our souls from our first remembrances of this life by our parents and fellow ward members and leaders. Then, one can see that it is like scientology or any of the other religions out there that have no proof.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules of Patheos: Midgley appears to violate TOS 10x
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:21 pm 
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So if we're supposed to take seriously the possibility that Smith was a prophet, then we should certainly take seriously the possibility that he was a con artist. And once that possibility is considered seriously, it's inherently hard to dismiss.

Sure, but most people don't think about their personal lives logically in this way. Are Mormons really more biased in their thinking than everyone else, or do they suffer from the same kind of bias, but just happen to have a worse set of information to be biased about?

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"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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