Did Joseph Smith get the 'Nephite Interpreters' back after 116 pages?

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_jfro18
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Did Joseph Smith get the 'Nephite Interpreters' back after 116 pages?

Post by _jfro18 »

This question has some nuance to it because I don't believe there ever were 'Nephite Interpreters' since no one saw them and the descriptions from those that claimed to feel them are contradictory, but...

When Joseph Smith lost the 116 pages he lost the 'interpreters' along with the plates. He then claims to get them back in his history "the former heavenly messenger appeared and handed to me the Urim and Thummim again"

But we know Joseph Smith only used the rock in a hat after the 116 pages (at least we have NOTHING to indicate otherwise... I know apologists claim he went back and forth which makes absolutely no sense) and we also know the phrase Urim and Thummim (U&T) was not used during the translation and was later used to describe the rock in a hat as well.

So the question is... did Joseph ever claim to get the spectacles/interpreters back... or is this just saying he got his method of 'translating' back for his history?

And again I don't believe any of this happened, but just trying to sort out how this was explained by Joseph Smith and those around him because I was under the impression he never got the original claimed interpreters back which is why he only used the rock in a hat post-116 pages.

Thanks!
_moksha
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Re: Did Joseph Smith get the 'Nephite Interpreters' back aft

Post by _moksha »

The Urim and Thummim was an artifact from the Old Testament used by the Jewish Priests. It consisted of two stones with yes and no symbols written on the front and back of the stones and attached to a breastplate with a cord (sort of like with the tassels on a stripper's pasties).

Joseph never possessed that artifact. It was something that was later tacked onto the original story as an embellishment. The embellishers even got the physical description of the object wrong. We should not encourage members in this flight of fancy. The more honest we can be in this regard the more it will ultimately aid the Church.
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_grindael
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Re: Did Joseph Smith get the 'Nephite Interpreters' back after 116 pag

Post by _grindael »

They really have no idea what the urim and thummim were, only guesses. It was something that was used to get a "yes" or "no" answer when deployed. It could have been a stone with a symbol on it.

Urim and Thummim [N] [T] [S]
The terms "Urim" and "Thummim" have traditionally been understood as "light(s)" and "perfection(s)" or as "perfect light." The Urim and Thummim were a means of revelation entrusted to the high priest. No description of them is given. This oracular means apparently consisted of a material object or objects since it was physically stored in the breastpiece of the high priest ( Exod 28:30 ; Lev 8:8 ). Most scholars today think that the Urim and Thummim were a lot oracle, but this is by no means certain.

Besides being mentioned by their full name ( Exod 28:30 ; Lev 8:8 ; Ezra 2:63 ; Neh 7:65 ; in reverse order with possessives, Deut 33:8 ), the Urim and Thummim could also be referred to by Urim alone ( Num 27:21 ; 1 Sam 28:6 ). Sometimes the mention of the ephod (on which the breastpiece housing the Urim and Thummim were fastened) includes a reference to the Urim and Thummim ( 1 Sam 23:9-12 ; 30:7-8 ). Also the verb "inquire of" followed by "the Lord" or "God" when no means of revelation is specified refers to a usage of the Urim and Thummim.

The Urim and Thummim were used at critical moments in the history of God's people when special divine guidance was needed. The civil leader was expected to make use of this means for all important matters for which he needed direction. Although referred to in ezr 2:63 and Nehemiah 7:65, there is no convincing evidence that the Urim and Thummim were used after the time of David.

The reason for the demise of the Urim and Thummim is not explicitly given. Since the Urim and Thummim, in whatever way they functioned, were a physical means of revelation, it appears that God was taking his people away from the easy certainty inherent in a mechanical means of revelation to the more consistent use of prophecy and the Word alone. This would require the more difficult application of the norms for true and false prophecy ( Deut 13:1-4 ; 18:20-22 ) and thus necessitate a faithful teaching priesthood ( Deut 33:10 ; Mal 2:7 ).

Although the lot theory has wide support today, there are significant difficulties with so identifying the Urim and Thummim. It is questionable whether the key evidence, the Greek text of 1 Samuel 14:41, is really to be preferred over the Hebrew text. Also, the vocabulary of lot casting is not used, and the answers contain more information than the casting of lots could yield ( eg 1:1 5:23-24 ). This last point suggests the involvement of prophecy and the divine inspiration of the high priest in giving revelation. It can also be noted that the use of the actual object(s) constituting the Urim and Thummim appears to have been self-authenticating. Even in extremely difficult circumstances, the guidance of the Urim and Thummim is followed ( Jud 20:18-28 ). It could be theorized that a perfect light that miraculously shone from the gem(s) constituting the Urim and Thummim (which belonged to God, Deut 33:8 ) gave the needed authentication to the actual answer spoken by the high priest under divine inspiration. In this way the judgment of the Urim, the light, may have been given ( Nu 27:21 ). Such authentication would not have been out of place in Old Testament times when special signs were provided more often.

Cornelis Van Dam https://www.biblestudytools.com/diction ... d-thummim/


Van Dam has put forth a lot of theories and is beloved by Mormon Apologists, but he states that there is no evidence that this device was used past the time of DAVID. Smith "restoring" it's use, is therefore a ridiculous notion, since it was never a part of any original Christianity.

As for Smith and the spectacles, there never were any spectacles only his peep-stone. The dog and pony show about the spectacles probably seemed like a good idea until Smith had to come up with them. And carrying a prop around would have been very bad if they were discovered. He got rid of the plates prop soon after he moved to Pennsylvania and never used it again. Too risky. Smith had to get rid of them. He may therefore have orchestrated the 116 page snafu. I think he had a plan all along and this was a way to get rid of the need for props.

David Whitmer made some statements about the stone and the spectacles that may be helpful. If you want, I'll dig some up.
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_Mormon Think
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Re: Did Joseph Smith get the 'Nephite Interpreters' back aft

Post by _Mormon Think »

As mentioned in the section above by David Whitmer, after the first 116 pages of the Book of Mormon were translated and then lost by Martin Harris, the Angel punished Joseph by taking away the golden plates and the Urim and Thummim. After Joseph repented for allowing the plates to be lost, the angel returned the golden plates to him but he did not return the Urim and Thummim. Instead Joseph had to resort to using a common stone that he had found while digging a well in the company of his brother Hyrum, for Willard and Mason Chase.

Joseph was digging a well for Mr. Chase. Martin Harris stated that, "Joseph had a stone which was dug from the well of Mason Chase, twenty-four feet from the surface." (Interview with Martin Harris, Tiffany's Monthly, 1859, pp 163-170.)

Dan Vogel quotes sources that indicate that in the fall of 1825, Joseph Smith sent Hyrum Smith to Willard Chase to borrow the stone from Willard. Willard Chase said that Hyrum came to him claiming that Joseph needed the stone to "accomplish some business of importance, which could not very well be done without the aid of the stone." Chase was hesitant but Hyrum persisted and promised to return the stone. But Chase would never see the stone again. (Willard Chase, ca. 11 De4c. 1833, in E. D. Howe, Mormonism Unvailed, 241. Also found in Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents 2:66)

Critics' Comments: Does it make sense that the angel would punish Joseph by taking away the very means by which he needed to translate the plates? The "Nephite Interpreters" were kept with the plates for thousands of years for the purpose of allowing the sacred golden plates to be translated to a modern-day language. Why preserve the Urim and Thummim and only allow it to be perhaps used for translating the first 116 pages of the Book of Mormon? Why punish Joseph after he repented—wasn't he forgiven? He did after all get the plates back, which are certainly more important than the Urim and Thummim. And why punish him in this manner by forcing him to resort to using a common stone he found while digging a well? Also, why does the church continually perpetuate the belief that the Urim and Thummim, contained in the stone box along with the gold plates, was used in translating the Book of Mormon when it was only perhaps used for the first 116 pages which were lost anyway?

The 2011 Sunday School manual on Joseph Smith states that:

For a time, the Lord took the Urim and Thummim and the plates from Joseph. But these things were soon restored to him. "The angel was rejoiced when he gave me back the Urim and Thummim," the Prophet recalled, "and said that God was pleased with my faithfulness and humility, and loved me for my penitence and diligence in prayer, in the which I had performed my duty so well as to be able to enter upon the work of translation again.

"Chapter 5: Repentance," Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, (2011), 69-77. Original source is Lucy Mack Smith, The History of Lucy Smith, Mother of the Prophet, 1844-45 manuscript, book 7, p. 11, Church Archives.

The History of the Church Vol. 1, Ch. 3 states that "the former heavenly messenger appeared and handed to me the Urim and Thummim again."

However, David Whitmer and Emma Smith said that the original Urim and Thummim was taken back by the angel after the 116 pages were lost and not returned. This seems more likely because if Joseph did have the original Urim and Thummim, why would he use a common stone he found while digging a well to translate the rest of the Book of Mormon? The fact that he used a single stone for translating the Book of Mormon is not in dispute as is mentioned many times by devout LDS historians such as B.H. Roberts and even apostle Russell M. Nelson. Also, the Church has this stone in its possession today but not the original spectacle-version of the Urim and Thummim, that was reportedly in the stone box.

Many critics contend that there never was a spectacle version of the Urim and Thummim. There doesn't appear to be any firm validation that anyone actually saw it other than Joseph, although Lucy Smith (Joseph's mother) claimed to have felt the breastplate under a cloth. Some critics speculate that perhaps the spectacle version and breastplate would not pass a detailed inspection so Joseph substituted one of his common seer stones when the angel purportedly took back the plates and Urim and Thummim after losing the 116 pages. Or perhaps he started using the stone sometime during translation of the first 116 pages to Martin Harris. If they used a curtain, as sometimes reported, Martin wouldn't know exactly what Joseph used and may explain why Martin said "that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim". David Whitmer wasn't there during that time, and Emma may have been confused, but Harris never said he saw anything other than the stone.

http://www.mormonthink.com/transbomweb. ... ldtheangel
_grindael
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Re: Did Joseph Smith get the 'Nephite Interpreters' back after 116 pag

Post by _grindael »

Harris did say this in the 1850's to Joel Tiffany:

"Joseph did not dig for these plates. They were placed in this way: four stones were set up and covered with a flat stone, oval on the upper side and flat on the bottom. Beneath this was a little platform upon which the plates were laid; and the two stones set in a bow of silver by means of which the plates were translated, were found underneath the plates.

"These plates were seven inches wide by eight inches in length, and were of the thickness of plates of tin; and when piled one above the other, they were altogether about four inches thick; and they were put together on the back by three silver rings, so that they would open like a book.

"The two stones set in a bow of silver were about two inches in diameter, perfectly round, and about five-eighths of an inch thick at the centre; but not so thick at the edges where they came into the bow. They were joined by a round bar of silver, about three-eighths of an inch in diameter, and about four inches long, which, with the two stones, would make eight inches.

"The stones were white, like polished marble, with a few gray streaks. I never dared to look into them by placing them in the hat, because Moses said that ‘no man could see God and live,’ and we could see anything we wished by looking into them; and I could not keep the desire to see God out of my mind. And beside, we had a command to let no man look into them, except by the command of God, lest he should ‘look aught and perish.’


"These plates were usually kept in a cherry box made for that purpose, in the possession of Joseph and myself. The plates were kept from the sight of the world, and no one, save Oliver Cowdrey [Cowdery], myself, Joseph Smith, jr., and David Whitmer, ever saw them. Before the Lord showed the plates to me, Joseph wished me to see them. But I refused, unless the Lord should do it. At one time, before the Lord showed them to me, Joseph said I should see them. I asked him, why he would break the commands of the Lord! He said, you have done so much I am afraid you will not believe unless you see them. I replied, ‘Joseph, I know all about it. The Lord has showed to me ten times more about it than you know.’"--Here we inquired of Mr. Harris-- How did the Lord show you these things? He replied, "I am forbidden to say anything [about] how the Lord showed them to me, except that by the power of God I have seen them."


Harris acts like he's seen the spectacles but never really says that he saw them. It's kind of bizarre the way he describes them here, kind of like they were described to him and he is acting like he saw them, but he gives no account of doing so. It seems that normally, a person would say, Joseph first showed them to me... blah, blah, blah, or when Joseph was translating he showed them to me and they were.. blah, blah, blah, Harris' description here just seems distant, like he is reciting something he heard second hand...

And Martin is lying about not wanting to see the plates... he did in Pennsylvania and Smith sent him out in the woods to view them but Martin couldn't find them were Smith said they would be...
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
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