Why the CES is Anti-Mormonism Partner in Crime

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_Philo Sofee
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Why the CES is Anti-Mormonism Partner in Crime

Post by _Philo Sofee »

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... ging_said/

The inanity they teach college level students in the CES is truly beyond breath taking......I can't help but chortle. SOmething along this same kind of thinking was presented to me in seminary, and I am ancient history man! They haven't changed their silliness in over 35 years that I have lived to witness. No wonder the Millenials are saying forget about it to the church....... :lol:
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_canpakes
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Re: Why the CES is Anti-Mormonism Partner in Crime

Post by _canpakes »

This statement from the CES instructor seems like an odd criticism of science given that the Church he belongs to claims continuing revelation.
_Holy Ghost
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Re: Why the CES is Anti-Mormonism Partner in Crime

Post by _Holy Ghost »

Philo Sofee wrote:LINK

The inanity they teach college level students in the CES is truly beyond breath taking......I can't help but chortle. SOmething along this same kind of thinking was presented to me in seminary, and I am ancient history man! They haven't changed their silliness in over 35 years that I have lived to witness. No wonder the Millenials are saying forget about it to the church....... :lol:

As compared to when I went to high school, today students are taught and encouraged much, much more to engage in and develop better skills for critical thinking. If seminary is, as Philo says, the same silliness it was 35 years ago, then one would expect a greater rejection of it by high school students now that they are more accustomed to thinking critically. Another example of the LDS dogma and approach slipping away, into the past where it belongs.
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." Isaac Asimov
_Physics Guy
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Re: Why the CES is Anti-Mormonism Partner in Crime

Post by _Physics Guy »

That reddit person wrote:If someone figured out that carbon dating the way we do it today was wrong, they would be famous and potentially get the nobel prize.

Yes. This is something that "alternative science" people really don't grasp. Science is conservative up to a point but if you've really got the goods to show that something major in current theory is wrong, the incentives are there for you to push it until it makes you rich and famous. And the world is full of young whippersnappers itching to make their own marks.

To become the new Master you must kill the old Master. Every scientist knows that. So the last thing anyone wants to do is cover up a demonstrable truth. Not because we're so noble, but because we'd all like to be king. That's why it's a good system to reward discoveries. The noble spirits are already going to be striving for truth, but this way the cause of truth also enlists the people who are driven by greed and vanity. They can also be smart, and there may just be more of them.
_huckelberry
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Re: Why the CES is Anti-Mormonism Partner in Crime

Post by _huckelberry »

Holy Ghost wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:LINK

The inanity they teach college level students in the CES is truly beyond breath taking......I can't help but chortle. SOmething along this same kind of thinking was presented to me in seminary, and I am ancient history man! They haven't changed their silliness in over 35 years that I have lived to witness. No wonder the Millenials are saying forget about it to the church....... :lol:

As compared to when I went to high school, today students are taught and encouraged much, much more to engage in and develop better skills for critical thinking. If seminary is, as Philo says, the same silliness it was 35 years ago, then one would expect a greater rejection of it by high school students now that they are more accustomed to thinking critically. Another example of the LDS dogma and approach slipping away, into the past where it belongs.


Ghost, I have no idea what has been happening in Seminary in the past 35 years but my memory of Seminary is that the level of thought involved varied with the teacher. I remember the earth as a collection of previous earth fragments idea but cannot remember taking it seriously. I think even in seminary the idea was prefaced with, "some people have thought". In the culture as a whole young earth beliefs have expanded so even in Mormon circles taking such imaginary images seriously could have expanded.

I am puzzled as to why you would think high school students have more critical thinking ability now.You might be thinking of something entirely different but I start out thinking that 35 years ago might be zenith of high school pot consumption. That substance may encourage (without requiring) substituting stream of conscious idea fragments for actual critical thought. (dinosaurs are from other planets?, yea yea yea what a flash!)

I am actually curious as to what you see indicating increase in critical thought? (In the age of Trump I need some encouragement)
_jfro18
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Re: Why the CES is Anti-Mormonism Partner in Crime

Post by _jfro18 »

Physics Guy wrote:
That reddit person wrote:If someone figured out that carbon dating the way we do it today was wrong, they would be famous and potentially get the nobel prize.

Yes. This is something that "alternative science" people really don't grasp. Science is conservative up to a point but if you've really got the goods to show that something major in current theory is wrong, the incentives are there for you to push it until it makes you rich and famous. And the world is full of young whippersnappers itching to make their own marks.

And this is why the people who claim archeologists, Egyptologists, etc are anti-Mormon are ridiculous.

If an archaeologist could find proof of the Book of Mormon, they would absolutely welcome it because it would make their career. Same can be said of an expert in Egyptian or DNA or whatever.

Yet we constantly hear church members hide behind that excuse that no one else would ever want to find evidence that supports the church.
_huckelberry
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Re: Why the CES is Anti-Mormonism Partner in Crime

Post by _huckelberry »

Philo Sofee wrote:LINK

The inanity they teach college level students in the CES is truly beyond breath taking......I can't help but chortle. SOmething along this same kind of thinking was presented to me in seminary, and I am ancient history man! They haven't changed their silliness in over 35 years that I have lived to witness. No wonder the Millenials are saying forget about it to the church....... :lol:

from the link: "He then tried to tell me that the world was created from parts of other existing worlds, and even if the cave paintings were that old, then they must have come from other worlds."

Philo or others, anybody know the genesis of this bit of fractured history. It is filed in my memory under quakers on the moon type stuff. Does it come from a Mormon leader or is it a bit of older Protestant speculation about dinosaurs?
_sunstoned
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Re: Why the CES is Anti-Mormonism Partner in Crime

Post by _sunstoned »

This teaching has been around for a long time. I think it can be traced back to Joseph Smith's statement:

"The word create came from the word baurau which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence, we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos—chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time he had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end."
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 350-352; italics in original; see also Joseph Smith Jr., "The King Follett Sermon," Ensign, Apr. 1971, 17.)
_deacon blues
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Re: Why the CES is Anti-Mormonism Partner in Crime

Post by _deacon blues »

I remember that one going around in the 1970's as an explanation of dinosaur bones. Then I heard it recently from a Brother in law. :rolleyes: I remember Bro. Hawkes (seminary teacher in 1972) trying to explain away evolution. Later I read the same explanation in Joseph Fielding Smith's "Man, His Origin and Destiny." Sad. :eek:
_huckelberry
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Re: Why the CES is Anti-Mormonism Partner in Crime

Post by _huckelberry »

sunstoned wrote:This teaching has been around for a long time. I think it can be traced back to Joseph Smith's statement:

"The word create came from the word baurau which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence, we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos—chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time he had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end."
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 350-352; italics in original; see also Joseph Smith Jr., "The King Follett Sermon," Ensign, Apr. 1971, 17.)

sunstoned, thanks for finding that. My memory said something similar might be in D and C but I am not sure. I remember understanding the idea chaotic matter to be something far more basic than chunks of rock pieced together to make the earths crust. I see now that that was my assumption largely. Someone else might see in the ambiguity large chunks building our earths crust like a mason. Odd idea.
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