Dan Vogel Interview on Mormon Stories Podcast

[_grindael]

Ingersol is perplexed because Joseph Smith told conflicting stories. Why would he want a box made for fake plates? I think Joseph Smith said the plates were fake to get the money diggers to leave him alone. If they should repeat what Joseph Smith said, no one would believe them anyway. The Smiths and friends knew a metallic book was in the cloth, not a box filled with sand. Later, at the March 1830 trial of Harris, someone testified about the box filled with sand, which supports Ingersol's account.

Right. So that's what I think, that the comment is not directed at the Smith family, but for the sake of the money-diggers. I always go back to what Lorenzo Saunders stated in his interview:

"Jo. Smith told the story but he told so many stories, it was a hard thing to get the fact in any way or shape..." (Edmund L. Kelley interview with Lorenzo Saunders — read and signed by Lorenzo Saunders, 1884, EMD Vol. II, 159)

[_grindael]

You know that Saunder's interview is fascinating. I was reading some of the apologist material about the Smith's, and they make some claims like the Smith's were so hard working, they made all that sugar themselves. But here is what Saunders wrote,

I went there to eat sugar. Samuel Lawrence went with me; There was 4 or 5 men making sugar; Their camp was right on the farm; They made several thousands pounds of sugar; You see there was a bounty in the state of New York & they was making a great deal of sugar & they had several boiling places & emploied some men; The men that was there stood down by the fence; There was Peter Ingersoll; Peter's now dead. he died near Pontiac [Michigan]. His land joined the Smith farm on the north. Well he was at work there, & he came there & he was in this group with them, & Samuel Lawrence & there was the old man [Orin] Rockwell; father to Port[er] Rockwell. And one George Proper. I do not know [p. 6] Whether he came to Kirtland or not. Della [Dolly] was baptized before they left.

E. L. Kelley How did they happen to be all together there?

Mr. S. There was George Proper & Rockwell I supposed there were men to work for them in the sugar bush; I never asked any questions about his help. Samuel Lawrence came along & I went to the house. And there was a man better dressed than the rest come along up to smiths & Stood out door. I says, to Hiram Smith what well dressed man is that that stood out there? And he said, it was Sidney Rigdon. This was in the time of making sugar along in march about the 10th or 15th, & they was in full blast & they used to invite us over to eat sugar. They made sugar every year.

E.L.K. How are you enabled to identify the time[?]

Mr. S. Because, I know it was before Jo. claimed to have taken the plates from the hill Cummorah. And there was some two or three of us traveled that ground over, & we could not find a hole. There was a great raft of them digging for money.

E.L.K. Who was at the head?

Mr. S. Jo. Smith with his peep Stone. I never saw Jo. Smith digging[.] I tell you Willard Chase could not have [p. 7] given his evidence at that time; He was a true Wesleyan Preacher (Well now how is it?) He [Pomeroy Tucker] took that from How[s]'s Book, Because that was all the place he could give his evidence

E.L.K. You see I have been up there and look after these Chases. His brother Able Chase says he never saw any digging there.

Mr. S. (Excited) I tell you, sir, I am one of them that saw digging there & I will Swear to it. I am one of them that went & tore the door down to the cave. My Father was in possession & he ordered us to break that door down & put the hole up.—

Benjamin Tabor [Abner Cole?] owned the land at that time. The cave was situated on the East side of the hill. It was a farm of a hundred acres; He had it on <<on>> an article & his article run out & he was likely to lose it. I went to Albany & I sold it to Amos Macy. I never Saw young Jo. Smith there by the cave. I will tell you I take the from what the old man said respecting that; The old man said: what: Jo. could see in his peep stone what there was in that cave. & the old man said that Joseph could see. [p. 8] [Young Jo never did any digging, he would direct things with his peepstone]

E.L.K. Was it not an account of the stories of there being treasure hidden there by old Spanish Buchaneers?

Mr. S. Well I will tell you they did dig; Willard Chase & Alvin, the one that died. Willard Chase told me about a place; He said he & alvin Smith went there to dig & there was a chest there; and he said it was so large, & so wide (measuring with a cane) It was an iron chest. And he said they dug down & it only lay a little under the ground. I says how did this shovel become broken up like that? Willard Chase then told me; He says Alvin & I went down & found that chest. Willard Chase claimed his sister Sally had a peep stone. The Lord bless you I have seen her peep stone a hundred times; It was a little bit of a stone & it was green & she would hold it before light. After I left there, it was thirty years ago:--after I left there I can not tell you whether the peep stone was used or not[.] When men will come to me & tell me that men can pick stones out of this Earth [sentence incomplete]. as I told Jo. Smith when he dug one out of a well on Chases Farm in the Shape of a baby's foot. They dug that hole for money. Chase's & Smiths altogether was digging it[.] [p. 9] I knew all about the stone; Edmund Chase told me all about it, He lives here now, this side of Kalamazoo. He is a man older than I am[.] his name is Edmund Chase[.] I tell you when a man will come <<tell>> me that any one can get a stone, & see knowledge of futurity, I say that he is a liar & the truth is not in him. Steve Mungou lost his pocket book in the road with some $50. in money in it. He went right to Sally Chase to get her to look & see where it was; She went & looked. He was drawing wood out of the woods. She said that pocket book lays right at the side of a log in the woods where you loaded that wood. It lays right at the side of the log well we went & hunted & raked the ground over where she said but could not find it. It past along & finally one night got a paper from Canadagua [Canandaigua, New York], & in it was that a pocket book was found & taken to an old Ontario Bank[.] Took it there & the owner could come & describe his book. And he went & found his pocket book at the bank. I lost [a] drag tooth out of my drag, dragging on my brothers premises there; I says: Sally, tell me where is that drag tooth? She told me "it lays in a log heap." She says I think it lays a little past you will find it [p. 10]

I went & hunted & hunted but could not find it there. I afterwards found it away over in one corner of the field. Well I was going to tell you about Jo. We went to Smiths one day, it was a rainy day; We went into the old mans shop, he was a cooper, and the old man had a shirt on it was the raggedest & dirtyest shirt, and all full of holes. & we got Jo. Smith to look & tell us what color our Girls hair was. well you see by & by some of them says go to Jo. says he Jo. come look into futurity & tell us how it is there? Jo. says I can not do that, I can not look into futurity I can not look into anything that is holy. The old man stood there and says: "I guess he can not look into my shirt then["]

It is obvious that Saunder's memories fluctuate between 1823-1827, and I think there is some conflation going on here. But with other accounts, the story can be pieced together rather well, and it must be remembered that the Beamans and Rockwells (later Mormons) all recalled Luman Walters (as did Brigham Young) being involved in the beginning with the Book of Mormon story. So it is not just these "antagonistic" Palmyra neighbors who recall the treasure hunting origins of the story.

Now, the apologists are all claiming that "folk magic" was all the rage and everybody was doing it, especially the Christians, and so it was used by God to influence the Smith's into believing in angels and things. It's a load of crap. Smith had a vision in 1820 and saw God, but still went into treasure digging, then saw an angel from God and still went back to treasure digging and then for the four years inbetween getting the plates got arrested and was doing the same thing over and over again? At the same time seeing the angel every year and getting instructions on how to run God's kingdom?

Give me a break.

I think there was only a small window where Joseph "repented" and tried religion... after 1824 ... but told the angel story and it was shut down by the clergy of the day and this pissed him off and he abandoned all religion. Then, he was in a quandary when he married Emma with her father and went back to it, (but was blocked by some of Emma's relatives) so he decides to be in charge of his own destiny/church and so resurrected the whole "record" story. That's my take on it.

[_Dan Vogel]

You know that Saunder's interview is fascinating. I was reading some of the apologist material about the Smith's, and they make some claims like the Smith's were so hard working, they made all that sugar themselves. But here is what Saunders wrote,

I went there to eat sugar. Samuel Lawrence went with me; There was 4 or 5 men making sugar; Their camp was right on the farm; They made several thousands pounds of sugar; You see there was a bounty in the state of New York & they was making a great deal of sugar & they had several boiling places & emploied some men; The men that was there stood down by the fence; There was Peter Ingersoll; Peter's now dead. he died near Pontiac [Michigan]. His land joined the Smith farm on the north. Well he was at work there, & he came there & he was in this group with them, & Samuel Lawrence & there was the old man [Orin] Rockwell; father to Port[er] Rockwell. And one George Proper. I do not know [p. 6] Whether he came to Kirtland or not. Della [Dolly] was baptized before they left.

E. L. Kelley How did they happen to be all together there?

Mr. S. There was George Proper & Rockwell I supposed there were men to work for them in the sugar bush; I never asked any questions about his help. Samuel Lawrence came along & I went to the house. And there was a man better dressed than the rest come along up to smiths & Stood out door. I says, to Hiram Smith what well dressed man is that that stood out there? And he said, it was Sidney Rigdon. This was in the time of making sugar along in march about the 10th or 15th, & they was in full blast & they used to invite us over to eat sugar. They made sugar every year.

E.L.K. How are you enabled to identify the time[?]

Mr. S. Because, I know it was before Jo. claimed to have taken the plates from the hill Cummorah. And there was some two or three of us traveled that ground over, & we could not find a hole. There was a great raft of them digging for money.

E.L.K. Who was at the head?

Mr. S. Jo. Smith with his peep Stone. I never saw Jo. Smith digging[.] I tell you Willard Chase could not have [p. 7] given his evidence at that time; He was a true Wesleyan Preacher (Well now how is it?) He [Pomeroy Tucker] took that from How[s]'s Book, Because that was all the place he could give his evidence

E.L.K. You see I have been up there and look after these Chases. His brother Able Chase says he never saw any digging there.

Mr. S. (Excited) I tell you, sir, I am one of them that saw digging there & I will Swear to it. I am one of them that went & tore the door down to the cave. My Father was in possession & he ordered us to break that door down & put the hole up.—

Benjamin Tabor [Abner Cole?] owned the land at that time. The cave was situated on the East side of the hill. It was a farm of a hundred acres; He had it on <<on>> an article & his article run out & he was likely to lose it. I went to Albany & I sold it to Amos Macy. I never Saw young Jo. Smith there by the cave. I will tell you I take the from what the old man said respecting that; The old man said: what: Jo. could see in his peep stone what there was in that cave. & the old man said that Joseph could see. [p. 8] [Young Jo never did any digging, he would direct things with his peepstone]

E.L.K. Was it not an account of the stories of there being treasure hidden there by old Spanish Buchaneers?

Mr. S. Well I will tell you they did dig; Willard Chase & Alvin, the one that died. Willard Chase told me about a place; He said he & alvin Smith went there to dig & there was a chest there; and he said it was so large, & so wide (measuring with a cane) It was an iron chest. And he said they dug down & it only lay a little under the ground. I says how did this shovel become broken up like that? Willard Chase then told me; He says Alvin & I went down & found that chest. Willard Chase claimed his sister Sally had a peep stone. The Lord bless you I have seen her peep stone a hundred times; It was a little bit of a stone & it was green & she would hold it before light. After I left there, it was thirty years ago:--after I left there I can not tell you whether the peep stone was used or not[.] When men will come to me & tell me that men can pick stones out of this Earth [sentence incomplete]. as I told Jo. Smith when he dug one out of a well on Chases Farm in the Shape of a baby's foot. They dug that hole for money. Chase's & Smiths altogether was digging it[.] [p. 9] I knew all about the stone; Edmund Chase told me all about it, He lives here now, this side of Kalamazoo. He is a man older than I am[.] his name is Edmund Chase[.] I tell you when a man will come <<tell>> me that any one can get a stone, & see knowledge of futurity, I say that he is a liar & the truth is not in him. Steve Mungou lost his pocket book in the road with some $50. in money in it. He went right to Sally Chase to get her to look & see where it was; She went & looked. He was drawing wood out of the woods. She said that pocket book lays right at the side of a log in the woods where you loaded that wood. It lays right at the side of the log well we went & hunted & raked the ground over where she said but could not find it. It past along & finally one night got a paper from Canadagua [Canandaigua, New York], & in it was that a pocket book was found & taken to an old Ontario Bank[.] Took it there & the owner could come & describe his book. And he went & found his pocket book at the bank. I lost [a] drag tooth out of my drag, dragging on my brothers premises there; I says: Sally, tell me where is that drag tooth? She told me "it lays in a log heap." She says I think it lays a little past you will find it [p. 10]

I went & hunted & hunted but could not find it there. I afterwards found it away over in one corner of the field. Well I was going to tell you about Jo. We went to Smiths one day, it was a rainy day; We went into the old mans shop, he was a cooper, and the old man had a shirt on it was the raggedest & dirtyest shirt, and all full of holes. & we got Jo. Smith to look & tell us what color our Girls hair was. well you see by & by some of them says go to Jo. says he Jo. come look into futurity & tell us how it is there? Jo. says I can not do that, I can not look into futurity I can not look into anything that is holy. The old man stood there and says: "I guess he can not look into my shirt then["]

It is obvious that Saunder's memories fluctuate between 1823-1827, and I think there is some conflation going on here. But with other accounts, the story can be pieced together rather well, and it must be remembered that the Beamans and Rockwells (later Mormons) all recalled Luman Walters (as did Brigham Young) being involved in the beginning with the Book of Mormon story. So it is not just these "antagonistic" Palmyra neighbors who recall the treasure hunting origins of the story.

Now, the apologists are all claiming that "folk magic" was all the rage and everybody was doing it, especially the Christians, and so it was used by God to influence the Smith's into believing in angels and things. It's a load of crap. Smith had a vision in 1820 and saw God, but still went into treasure digging, then saw an angel from God and still went back to treasure digging and then for the four years inbetween getting the plates got arrested and was doing the same thing over and over again? At the same time seeing the angel every year and getting instructions on how to run God's kingdom?

Give me a break.

I think there was only a small window where Joseph "repented" and tried religion... after 1824 ... but told the angel story and it was shut down by the clergy of the day and this pissed him off and he abandoned all religion. Then, he was in a quandary when he married Emma with her father and went back to it, (but was blocked by some of Emma's relatives) so he decides to be in charge of his own destiny/church and so resurrected the whole "record" story. That's my take on it.

I think you are on the right track.

[_grindael]

Well Dan, I owe a lot of how I see this now to you and Mike, but still am not on board with all of your (or his) ideas... though I'm open to changing my mind about them.

But the reason that I'm so interested in this, is that I'm of the opinion that to understand Joseph's later religious development, it is crucial to understand the origins of it. I don't think any of his doctrinal developments and the way he thought about "revelation" and how he developed his ideas about various doctrines and practices means a whole lot without delving into the early history of how he got involved with it all. So my book on his Spiritual Wifeism, starts at the beginning, with the claimed visions and treasure hunting and the relationships he was said to have from the beginning, the one with Emma being the most important of them all. The Spiritual Wifeism (sealing power, etc) came about in Nauvoo, but I don't think you can or should start there. I'm not, anyway.

With all that in mind, I very much appreciate being able to listen to these podcasts... I've already had to change a few things in my manuscript.

[_grindael]

Here is Apologist Larry Morris, who claims in a new book (a retread of an old FARMS article) that,

The pattern is clear: the earliest witnesses emphasized the religious aspects of the story; accounts emphasizing “Captain Kidd” elements were later developments. This is the same pattern revealed with both newspapers and early letters and diaries. In every case, religious elements are included in the first accounts and are more common than the later magical elements. (pg. 33) https://publications.mi.byu.edu/publica ... Morris.pdf

Actually, Morris doesn't know what the "earliest witnesses emphasized", because here are no extant accounts between 1823 and 1827, as he admits. There are only accounts made later, when the emphasis had shifted from treasure guardian/spirits to angels of "God". 

And why would the angel stories be first, and the stories about the ghost and Captain Kidd come afterwards? Because the newspapers and others were reporting the story as it unfolded in 1829-30, and that is the story Joseph and those involved were telling then, that's why. As this story got out, others who remembered the events from 1823 and earlier began to speak out about them. And as Joseph's neighbors learned that the Smith's were now claiming that an angel appeared to young Joseph and that he was "translating" gold plates, they naturally inquired of the family what was going on. And got the mixed responses of Smith Sr. and others. It is entirely possible that those like Joseph Knight, Sr. got information from both Joseph Jr. & Sr., and that his story incorporates elements of both: Joseph Jr.'s later religious aspects and Joseph Sr.'s treasure remembrances of treasure origin aspects. 

Also, the first story of going to the hill (when Alvin was dying) was a family affair, Joseph told his family not to spread that story around. (See Lucy's Book). He went to the hill, and could not get the "record". He then abandons the idea. So many of Joseph's neighbors didn't hear the original story until he resurrected it in 1827, but with different aspects - an angel for one, and a religious overtone. No 1820 vision, there never was one, just the story of the angel and seeking repentance from God, what happened in 1824 Joseph now relates, but not with the treasure guardian, but with an angel who tells him all the churches were wrong. This is what the missionaries (including Joseph's brother Harrison) were teaching in the early 1830's. The claimed "first vision" was invented later. (This is where I differ with Dan, I believe it was a total fabrication, like the story of the gold plates). I believe that Joseph probably got a "spark of Methodism" at a camp meeting.

All this apologist nonsense about folk magic and how it was tied to Christianity is a smoke screen. Why?

Because of what Joseph himself claimed when he wrote up his visions. In the first one, he claims that God told him that all the churches were wrong, all religion was wrong, and that he was not to "go after" any of it. Then Joseph tells us that he messed up, but repented and an "angel" appeared to him and forgave him and all was well. Yet, that's not what happened. Joseph goes back to the money-digging in 1825 for Josiah Stowell, using the peep stone he stole from Willard Chase to search for buried treasure.

After he was told twice to stop, once by God himself [c. 1820] and once by an angel [c. 1823]. And what about his report to the angel in 1824, 25 & 26, since Joseph claimed that he met with the angel three more times on each successive September 22nd. What did he tell the angel? Joseph writes about those four years after the 1823 visit:

I found the same messenger there and received instruction and intelligence from him at each of our interviews respecting what the Lord was going to do, and how and in what manner his kingdom was to be conducted in the last days. . . .

We are supposed to believe this? Joseph is meeting with the angel and talking about "what manner his kingdom was to be conducted" while at the same time using his stolen peep-stone to search for lost objects and find buried treasure and scry treasure guardians?

Why is there no mention of his return to treasure hunting and his arrest for glass-looking! This begs the question why should we trust any of Smith's accounts of what happened? And how are we to believe Morris when he claims that,

Almost two years after Jesse Smith wrote [his] letter, individuals such as David Burnett and James Gordon Bennett began to associate the plates with treasure seeking, a ghost, and a vanishing chest.

He claims that Jesse Smith was not associating the plates with treasure seeking, yet, this is what Jesse Smith wrote in 1829 (which Morris doesn't quote):

...if it be a gold book discovered by the necromancy of infidelity, & dug from the mines of atheism, ... and then has the audacity to say they are; and the angel of the Lord (Devil it should be) has put me in possession of great wealth, gold & silver and precious stones so that I shall have the dominion in all the land of Palmyra. ...he says your father has a wand or rod like Jannes & Jambres who withstood Moses in Egypt— that he can tell the distance from India to Ethiopia or another fool story, many other things alike ridiculous.

Morris claims that, "Joseph Smith’s uncle Jesse Smith vehemently objected to Joseph’s claims, protesting precisely because they were so thoroughly religious," but Jesse didn't think their claims were religious at all! He claims they were "dug from the mines of atheism" and uses the word "necromancy", which is associated with money-digging. (Resurrecting the spirits of dead people - Angels were not people in Christianity, they were special creations of God) Jesse scoffs at the religiosity that he knows his brother and nephews are trying to cloak their treasure digging yarn in, ridiculing his "rod", and not comparing it to Aaron or Moses' staffs, but to the magicians rods that opposed Moses and his brother!

And how does Morris and other apologists account for the same stories of treasure guardians and Captain Kidd being told by Brigham Young, Porter Rockwell and others? And that they predated the angel story? They don't.

I'm getting a handle on all this, and I'm putting together the accounts that substantiate it all. And I'm also going to take apart the claimed "first" vision of Smith's and why he wrote that and the 1834 version. (Using a lot of Dan's excellent research). Stay tuned. I've got that part done, working on the early treasure seeking stuff now...

[_Amore]

:)

[_Mormon Think]

Mormonstories have posted the videos to their website:

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/dan-vogel/