Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and Links

[_Rosebud]

Mary, I just read Smith's March 2004 document more thoroughly. There's a lot there.

Lots of names, lots to organize. Me posting random thoughts might be less help than not posting at all. Sorry.

I noticed that Smith's 2004 document says Bill (alleged perpetrator) grew up in the Mount Olympus area and that he allegedly abused other children while he was a teenager there. I don't know if the document meant he allegedly abused other children as a child, too, but I would see all the children (including child Bill) as victims.

This is the really ugly part of this. Some alleged child victims grow up to be alleged perps.

I'm guessing the alleged Mount Olympus ring might come up again so this is one place where the strands would cross.

A LOT to organize.

[_Mary]

Mary, I just read Smith's March 2004 document more thoroughly. There's a lot there.

Lots of names, lots to organize. Me posting random thoughts might be less help than not posting at all. Sorry.

I noticed that Smith's 2004 document says Bill (alleged perpetrator) grew up in the Mount Olympus area and that he allegedly abused other children while he was a teenager there. I don't know if the document meant he allegedly abused other children as a child, too, but I would see all the children (including child Bill) as victims.

This is the really ugly part of this. Some alleged child victims grow up to be alleged perps.

I'm guessing the alleged Mount Olympus ring might come up again so this is one place where the strands would cross.

A LOT to organize.

I need to put that document in, because as Lemmie says I use it a lot. Yeah. I read to the end and it seems he was prolific in his abuse. I wonder if there are victims from that neighbourhood who will come forward.

[_Mary]

Lemmie, in the context of a panic and in a new and developing field, Snow made mistakes. So did all of them at the time. But do you judge them on their non malicious mistakes or on the children they were trying to protect from further abuse?

In both the Bullock and Hadfield cases, parents took their children to ISAT because they were concerned by the inappropriate behaviour of their children, whether that be speech or actions. The parents gut feelings were that something was going on.

At the bottom of all the panic, are kids that, I believe, were being abused by someone. The stories were sifted through and the one's prosecuted were dads. Except in the perpetrators case. In his case he seemed to be untouchable because parents were basically trying to protect their kids against a court process that could be damaging. Heck, it can be traumatic for adults, let alone kids.

[_Rosebud]

It's all so much to keep track of that I'm feeling like I need a list of names and roles with parenthetical citations guiding people to where the information was found.

Not that you have to do this or that I won't help when I can find some time. I'm on my phone in NYC this weekend. I just took my never-Mo significant other to the Book of Mormon musical! I laughed and cried all over again. I have so much more perspective now than I did in 2011 when I first say it. It seems more sweet and innocent (yes, with lots of lewd humor) than it did only a few years ago. I think I'm beginning to see things more from the outside.

I'm wanting to get my ideas down while I have them.

Anyway, for example: And this is not meant to be accurate because I don't have the documents in front of me

Marion Smith: Grandmother (Smith, 2004)of Jane Doe 1 (paeudonym Tricia; Smith, 2004) and Jane Doe 2 (paeudonym ______; Smith, 2004) and John Doe 1 (Lawsuit, October 3, 2018) and first director of ISAT (Smith, 2004).

Bill (can't remember his last name): Alleged sexual predator and father of Jane Doe 1 and Jane Doe 2 and step-father of Jane Doe 3 and Jane Doe 4, father of John Doe 3 (lawsuit, October 3, 2018). Grew up in Mount Okympus area where he was allegedly abused as a child and allegedly abused other children (Smith, 2004). Allegedly worked together with ___ and ___ Miles to abuse Jane Doe 1, Jane Doe 2, and John Doe 1. Alleged sexual predation was allegedly reported to church authorities on several occasions and before the alleged abuse of Jane Doe 3, Jane Doe 4, and John Doe 2 ("lawsuit, October 3, 2018; Smith, 2004).

[_Rosebud]

Also, about the lie detector tests and "truth serum," when read in the context of the document, they're mentioned because it appears they occurred, not as if she is placing stock solely in them. In fact, If I recall correctly, she says she felt the John Hopkins program was poor.

It doesn't make sense to discredit the alleged victims because two controversial test were administered. They happened. They need to be mentioned. They look worse when they're cherry picked than when they're interpreted within context.

[_Mary]

It's all so much to keep track of that I'm feeling like I need a list of names and roles with parenthetical citations guiding people to where the information was found.

Not that you have to do this or that I won't help when I can find some time. I'm on my phone in New York City this weekend. I just took my never-Mo significant other to the Book of Mormon musical! I laughed and cried all over again. I have so much more perspective now than I did in 2011 when I first say it. It seems more sweet and innocent (yes, with lots of lewd humor) than it did only a few years ago. I think I'm beginning to see things more from the outside.

I'm wanting to get my ideas down while I have them.

Anyway, for example: And this is not meant to be accurate because I don't have the documents in front of me

Marion Smith: Grandmother (Smith, 2004)of Jane Doe 1 (paeudonym Tricia; Smith, 2004) and Jane Doe 2 (paeudonym ______; Smith, 2004) and John Doe 1 (Lawsuit, October 3, 2018) and first director of ISAT (Smith, 2004).

Bill (can't remember his last name): Alleged sexual predator and father of Jane Doe 1 and Jane Doe 2 and step-father of Jane Doe 3 and Jane Doe 4, father of John Doe 3 (lawsuit, October 3, 2018). Grew up in Mount Okympus area where he was allegedly abused as a child and allegedly abused other children (Smith, 2004). Allegedly worked together with ___ and ___ Miles to abuse Jane Doe 1, Jane Doe 2, and John Doe 1. Alleged sexual predation was allegedly reported to church authorities on several occasions and before the alleged abuse of Jane Doe 3, Jane Doe 4, and John Doe 2 ("lawsuit, October 3, 2018; Smith, 2004).

I have found Bill's full name etc. Wasn't sure whether to post. So exercised caution.

Jane Doe 5 is a daughter of Mother1 who made a witness statement but didn't want to be part of the suit (as I recall)

It would be good to have an outline of key people.

[_Mary]

My son's college friends (never Mormon) went to see the Book of Mormon Musical and loved it. Bit rude in parts but loved the music. *Turn it off* !!

[_Mary]

My son has never told his friends of my LDS connection. Not sure quite what to make of that!

[_Rosebud]

My son has never told his friends of my LDS connection. Not sure quite what to make of that!

Lol.... maybe that's good.

I've been thinking about the use of Bill's last name. Hopefully all the Does have different last names now and wouldn't be exposed to media by using it.

I think using dead alleged predators' last names makes a lot of sense. Predators tend to put themselves in positions where they have access to kids. Naming them by name might encourage other victims to come forward.

If an alleged predator is alive, police reports should be made and investigations done. Charges should be filed when possible.

But if an alleged predator is dead, especially if he/she has been dead for over a decade......

If any of this is real, some of these guys could have many many many silent victims.

[_Mary]

One correction: the Utah Supreme Court did not deny Alan Hadfield's appeal for a new trial. It ordered the District Court to conduct an evidentiary hearing. I can't find any information on what happened at that hearing. It looks like Hadfield was paroled to a treatment center of some kind, but it's not clear. The Supreme Court case is important because the Court ordered an evidentiary hearing based on new information about how Snow Treated the children.

I would add the date that the one other fellow who was convicted was paroled.

I'd also try to track down when Snow left her original place of employment and what happened to that organization, if possible. She also apparently alleged the existence of rings besides those in the chronology. I'd track down information about those as well and add them.

I think creating a timeline is a great method for trying to figure out complex situations.

Okay, finally got some down time to amend. I have looked and looked for what happened at the evidentiary hearing. The Miles suit maintains that Hadfield's conviction was overturned.