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 Post subject: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and Links
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:25 pm 
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Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

by Mary

Created in an effort to help make some sense of what's happened. I have agreed to help Mary as I can.

The plan is to make this a working document that can be added to as more is found. Omissions and evidence of missing evidence will also be included.

This thread is not intended to replace the other thread already discussing the lawsuit, but please post here to alert us to any documentation we may have missed.

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Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:54 am 
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For information about the program at John Hopkins that Bill Carstensen went to in the 80s, this is a good article:

The Professor of Horrible Deeds

Based on that article, I'm very, very skeptical that they would give Bill a "lie detector test" or ask him questions "under sodium amythol" (both of which are extremely problematic claims in their own right).

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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:20 pm 
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cinepro wrote:
For information about the program at John Hopkins that Bill Carstensen went to in the 80s, this is a good article:

The Professor of Horrible Deeds

Based on that article, I'm very, very skeptical that they would give Bill a "lie detector test" or ask him questions "under sodium amythol" (both of which are extremely problematic claims in their own right).

HI Cinepro,

I am trying to figure out where this information belongs in the Chronological List.

In the article you linked it says:

Quote:
Berlin, who is an associate professor of psychiatric and behavioral sciences and director of the Sex and Gender Clinic at the Johns Hopkins University, is fascinated by shifting perceptions of sin — gluttony, he observes, was once categorized with other cardinal vices, but is now understood as more of a medical issue than a personal failing.

Do we have any indication Bill was treated by Berlin? Berlin was an associate professor at Johns Hopkins and Bill was treated at Johns Hopkins. That doesn't necessarily mean that Berlin treated Bill.

I don't know that a "lie detector test" or questions under the influence of any "truth serum" are all that pertinent as, like you say, those are questionable practices with questionable results. Could you point out in what way the evidence is dependent on lie detector tests or truth serums so that it's possible to get the right links into the document in some sort of order that will make it easy for people to follow?

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Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document


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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:11 pm 
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List a work in progress. Been trying to add links and details..Page numbers etc. When it's finished I can delete repetitive links, but can't find a way to add references. Ugh.

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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:07 pm 
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Rosebud wrote:
I don't know that a "lie detector test" or questions under the influence of any "truth serum" are all that pertinent as, like you say, those are questionable practices with questionable results. Could you point out in what way the evidence is dependent on lie detector tests or truth serums so that it's possible to get the right links into the document in some sort of order that will make it easy for people to follow?



On page 15 of Marion Smith's retelling, she says that while at John Hopkins,

Quote:
[Bill Carstensen] failed a lie detector test when he denied molesting his children. Under sodium amythol, he stated "I know I've done things to my kids. I know my mother molested me."


But as described in that article, John Hopkins wasn't investigating crimes, they were providing therapy. I guess it's possible that they hooked up their patients to polygraphs and injected them with sodium amythol to get them to tell the truth, but I would need more context and documentation before I believe Marion Smith's account of what happened there.

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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:13 pm 
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cinepro wrote:
Rosebud wrote:
I don't know that a "lie detector test" or questions under the influence of any "truth serum" are all that pertinent as, like you say, those are questionable practices with questionable results. Could you point out in what way the evidence is dependent on lie detector tests or truth serums so that it's possible to get the right links into the document in some sort of order that will make it easy for people to follow?

On page 15 of Marion Smith's retelling, she says that while at John Hopkins,

Quote:
[Bill Carstensen] failed a lie detector test when he denied molesting his children. Under sodium amythol, he stated "I know I've done things to my kids. I know my mother molested me."

But as described in that article, John Hopkins wasn't investigating crimes, they were providing therapy. I guess it's possible that they hooked up their patients to polygraphs and injected them with sodium amythol to get them to tell the truth, but I would need more context and documentation before I believe Marion Smith's account of what happened there.

Thanks for finding that. That's relevant. It tells us something about Marion Smith, Marion Smith's reasoning, and Marion Smith's perceptions of what happened at John Hopkins.

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Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document


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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:45 pm 
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Rosebud and Mary, in your chronological list, are you attempting to factually create a timeline, or just a timeline asserted but not verified ?

For example, you have this, but you offer no objective or verified source:

Quote:
1986 April – at request of police Dr at Primary hospital confirmed all 4 children of Mother 1 had been sexually abused.

Mother 1s children were taken to Dr. Martin Palmer at Primary Hospital for verification of the abuse and to assess medical harm. Dr, Palmer found no question of their abuse.

[https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p14]

Your source is the same one you use for the majority of your chronology, a source that in my opinion is not credible or reliable in the least. Do you have any objective proof, or is your goal here just to outline the "ritual abuse scare" allegations? Your intent is not clear.


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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:17 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
Rosebud and Mary, in your chronological list, are you attempting to factually create a timeline, or just a timeline asserted but not verified ?

For example, you have this, but you offer no objective or verified source:

Quote:
1986 April – at request of police Dr at Primary hospital confirmed all 4 children of Mother 1 had been sexually abused.

Mother 1s children were taken to Dr. Martin Palmer at Primary Hospital for verification of the abuse and to assess medical harm. Dr, Palmer found no question of their abuse.

[https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p14]

Your source is the same one you use for the majority of your chronology, a source that in my opinion is not credible or reliable in the least. Do you have any objective proof, or is your goal here just to outline the "ritual abuse scare" allegations? Your intent is not clear.



Hi Lemmie,

I'm quoting contemporary sources available where I can.
Marion Smith is the grandmother of the children. She's an inside source.

It's up to you to decide the reliability of her witness.

The suit filed by the grandkids seems to tally with her account from what I can see.

If you have other first hand witnesses let me know.

I'm gradually adding other sources and newspaper articles where I can. Massimo Introvigne is included as a secondary source.

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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:28 am 
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Also, Lemmie, I haven't finished sourcing the documents.

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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:29 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
Rosebud and Mary, in your chronological list, are you attempting to factually create a timeline, or just a timeline asserted but not verified ?

For example, you have this, but you offer no objective or verified source:

Quote:
1986 April – at request of police Dr at Primary hospital confirmed all 4 children of Mother 1 had been sexually abused.

Mother 1s children were taken to Dr. Martin Palmer at Primary Hospital for verification of the abuse and to assess medical harm. Dr, Palmer found no question of their abuse.

[https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p14]

Your source is the same one you use for the majority of your chronology, a source that in my opinion is not credible or reliable in the least. Do you have any objective proof, or is your goal here just to outline the "ritual abuse scare" allegations? Your intent is not clear.

Quote:

Hi Lemmie,

I'm quoting contemporary sources available where I can.
Marion Smith is the grandmother of the children. She's an inside source.

It's up to you to decide the reliability of her witness.

The suit filed by the grandkids seems to tally with her account from what I can see.

If you have other first hand witnesses let me know.

I'm gradually adding other sources and newspaper articles where I can. Massimo Introvigne is included as a secondary source.

Ok, thanks. You mentioned other first hand witnesses; IMO Marion Smith's account would not be considered as giving first hand testimony.


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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:06 am 
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She wasn't a witness to any abuse, but she was there at the time, participated in interviewing the perpetrator at John Hopkins and at least one granddaughter.

No worries, Lemmie. Again, it's up to the reader to decide on the credibility of adult and child witnesses.

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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:48 am 
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Mary wrote:
She wasn't a witness to any abuse, but she was there at the time, participated in interviewing the perpetrator at John Hopkins and at least one granddaughter.

No worries, Lemmie. Again, it's up to the reader to decide on the credibility of adult and child witnesses.

Agreed. I was expecting the terms 'chronology' and 'timeline' to refer to objective, fact-based and verified events since that is the more typical meaning, so it was a little disconcerting to look into the sources and find that the majority of the chronological statements were based on one person's opinion, and would probably be disputed by other participants involved. That makes the terminology problematic, if your goal here is to present an objectively reliable chronology.

You've done some great work compiling this, so it might be helpful to add something like "Marion Smith alleges" to the applicable entries so that people understand your meaning.


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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:34 am 
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Yeah. Good point. I'll change them where applicable.

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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:44 am 
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WOW, Mary. This has been SUPER fascinating. Thanks for putting this together. As someone who is just a rubbernecker on this forum this is... Well, it's scary and, I don't know. I lack the words. The way your document constructs the picture this whole affair is bizarre and terrifying. It's a sort of Salem Witch Trials Meets the Mormons mash-up.

Incredibly interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Rosebud wrote:
cinepro wrote:
For information about the program at John Hopkins that Bill Carstensen went to in the 80s, this is a good article:

The Professor of Horrible Deeds

Based on that article, I'm very, very skeptical that they would give Bill a "lie detector test" or ask him questions "under sodium amythol" (both of which are extremely problematic claims in their own right).

HI Cinepro,

I am trying to figure out where this information belongs in the Chronological List.

In the article you linked it says:

Quote:
Berlin, who is an associate professor of psychiatric and behavioral sciences and director of the Sex and Gender Clinic at the Johns Hopkins University, is fascinated by shifting perceptions of sin — gluttony, he observes, was once categorized with other cardinal vices, but is now understood as more of a medical issue than a personal failing.

Do we have any indication Bill was treated by Berlin? Berlin was an associate professor at Johns Hopkins and Bill was treated at Johns Hopkins. That doesn't necessarily mean that Berlin treated Bill.

I don't know that a "lie detector test" or questions under the influence of any "truth serum" are all that pertinent as, like you say, those are questionable practices with questionable results. Could you point out in what way the evidence is dependent on lie detector tests or truth serums so that it's possible to get the right links into the document in some sort of order that will make it easy for people to follow?


for what it's worth, Exhibit "A" in the filed complaint is the discharge from John Hopkins, and it says Berlin was the "Discharge Attending":

https://fox13now.com/2018/10/03/lawsuit ... president/

It doesn't seem to have the complete discharge order, but the second page does say something about sodium amythol, so that part appears to be valid.

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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Quote:
[Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

by Mary

Created in an effort to help make some sense of what's happened.

Ultimately, do you intend to add anything besides just the one viewpoint? There are so many issues with the source you are using for the vast majority of your timeline that it's really difficult to use it to "make some sense of what's happened," as per your stated goal.


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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:17 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Quote:
[Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

by Mary

Created in an effort to help make some sense of what's happened.

Ultimately, do you intend to add anything besides just the one viewpoint? There are so many issues with the source you are using for the vast majority of your timeline that it's really difficult to use it to "make some sense of what's happened," as per your stated goal.


Lemmie, check again. I've used quite a lot of sources including the suit. I can't ignore Smith. Do you have some sources I can add on the cases specifically.

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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:03 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Quote:
[Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

by Mary

Created in an effort to help make some sense of what's happened.

Ultimately, do you intend to add anything besides just the one viewpoint? There are so many issues with the source you are using for the vast majority of your timeline that it's really difficult to use it to "make some sense of what's happened," as per your stated goal.

Quote:
Lemmie, check again. I've used quite a lot of sources including the suit. I can't ignore Smith. Do you have some sources I can add on the cases specifically.

No I don't. And I did look again. In my opinion the vast majority of your references are based on a wildly unreliable source, to the extent that what you've created is a story of how fictional interpretations can invade and disrupt a real life situation for decades. If that was your intent, then I get it.


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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:13 pm 
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Quote:
No I don't. And I did look again. In my opinion the vast majority of your references are based on a wildly unreliable source, to the extent that what you've created is a story of how fictional interpretations can invade and disrupt a real life situation for decades. If that was your intent, then I get it.


I have found one contradiction in Smith's account and I noted it. I'm also using the suit. Lemmie, again, point me in the direction of reliable sources. I'll include them.

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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:02 pm 
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One correction: the Utah Supreme Court did not deny Alan Hadfield's appeal for a new trial. It ordered the District Court to conduct an evidentiary hearing. I can't find any information on what happened at that hearing. It looks like Hadfield was paroled to a treatment center of some kind, but it's not clear. The Supreme Court case is important because the Court ordered an evidentiary hearing based on new information about how Snow Treated the children.

I would add the date that the one other fellow who was convicted was paroled.

I'd also try to track down when Snow left her original place of employment and what happened to that organization, if possible. She also apparently alleged the existence of rings besides those in the chronology. I'd track down information about those as well and add them.

I think creating a timeline is a great method for trying to figure out complex situations.

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 Post subject: Re: Nelson Daughter and SIL - Documents, Media Reports and L
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:37 pm 
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Yes, I recall at least two other alleged rings (Olympus Cove and Liberty Park, IIRC). This does get complex. How can those side rings be accounted for in one document? Would it work to keep everything in chronological order and then use different colors for each line of related occurrences? What works best for you, Mary?

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Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document


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