Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Mary
_Emeritus
Posts: 1774
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

cinepro wrote:
Rosebud wrote:If we do find that the police didn't investigate the reports correctly (hopefully the records aren't really missing), it's hard to lay blame at their feet. They deal with a lot of unwell people and have to make snap judgements about what is worth giving credence to and what is a mistaken understanding.

That said, a snap judgement to not do a real investigation because the claims seemed too preposterous to be true still means a real investigation wasn't done. If that turns out to be the case, the argument that "the police investigated and didn't find anything" is null.


The most interesting question in all this is what happened if the Miles were actually engaging in group abuse of the children (including making them drink "a concoction of urine and feces"). Do you believe they stopped after the Carstensen children revealed the abuse? Or have they continued abusing kids to this day?



Cinepro. Last night I listened to Tara Workman Tulley who works in the field.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/ther ... -ut/130396

I think she offers some good explanations based on more recent research, on how children store traumatic memories, and how fantastical elements may find their way into childrens memories.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TxygbVe7XoU&feature=share
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Rosebud
_Emeritus
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 6:04 pm

Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Rosebud »

It's not impossible that cruel adults would force children to eat and drink excrement. It's something good people wish were impossible.
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document
_Mary
_Emeritus
Posts: 1774
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

Rosebud wrote:It's not impossible that cruel adults would force children to eat and drink excrement. It's something good people wish were impossible.


Rosebud, has there been any research on the use of drugs in abusing children?
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Mary
_Emeritus
Posts: 1774
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

There have been quite a few high profile cases here in the UK where children were drugged in order to exploit them. It happens. I wonder how that would effect memory?
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Rosebud
_Emeritus
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 6:04 pm

Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Rosebud »

"Non-accidental poisoning"

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?star ... eOW14VkKUJ

Papers and originals.

David Rogers, John Tripp, Arnon Bentovim, Anthony Robinson, David Berry, Roy Goulding
Br Med J 1 (6013), 793-796, 1976
Six cases of persistent non-accidental poisoning of children by their parents are reported. Certain features may draw attention to the diagnosis, particularly bizarre symptoms and signs with no apparent pathological explanation, and toxicological analysis should be carried out to obtain rapid confirmation of the diagnosis. The underlying disorder may include marital conflict, overinvolvement between parent and child, or drug abuse in the parents. A suggested plan of action for managing this problem is outlined.
View at bmj.com


This one is available online: https://www.jstor.org/stable/20409268?s ... b_contents

------

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3403002400


Child Abuse & Neglect
Volume 27, Issue 12, December 2003, Pages 1409-1425
The relationship between parental substance abuse and child maltreatment: findings from the Ontario Health Supplement☆
Author links open overlay panelChristineWalsh1EllenJamieson
Show more
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chiabu.2003.07.002
Get rights and content
Abstract
Objective: This study examined the relationship between reported exposure to child abuse and a history of parental substance abuse (alcohol and drugs) in a community sample in Ontario, Canada.

Method: The sample consisted of 8,472 respondents to the Ontario Mental Health Supplement (OHSUP), a comprehensive population survey of mental health. The association of self-reported retrospective childhood physical and sexual abuse and parental histories of drug or alcohol abuse was examined.

Results: Rates of physical and sexual abuse were significantly higher, with a more than twofold increased risk among those reporting parental substance abuse histories. The rates were not significantly different between type or severity of abuse. Successively increasing rates of abuse were found for those respondents who reported that their fathers, mothers or both parents had substance abuse problems; this risk was significantly elevated for both parents compared to father only with substance abuse problem.

Conclusions: Parental substance abuse is associated with a more than twofold increase in the risk of exposure to both childhood physical and sexual abuse. While the mechanism for this association remains unclear, agencies involved in child protection or in treatment of parents with substance abuse problems must be cognizant of this relationship and focus on the development of interventions to serve these families.

Keywords
Physical abuseSexual abuseSubstance abuse
Recommended articlesCiting articles (184)



People who listen to reports of child abuse hear a lot.

I am not aware of any studies that try to quantify what percentage of adults who use drugs also intentionally administer them to children while they are abusing them. I'm having a hard time thinking through the methodology a researcher might use to investigate that question.

A qualitative study might be more appropriate, but would likely only be able to examine what adults said about childhood memories of "feeling strange" while abuse was occurring.

That would be interesting to read, but wouldn't offer evidence like a urine sample of a child soon after abuse could. Those would be hard to collect because abusive adults don't walk their kids over to clinic to pee in a cup.

It's hard to study some things....
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document
_Mary
_Emeritus
Posts: 1774
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

It's hard to study some things...


That makes sense.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Rosebud
_Emeritus
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 6:04 pm

Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Rosebud »

Mary wrote:
It's hard to study some things...


That makes sense.


It might be worth adding that realistically, children as subjects are pretty much out when trying to study something like this. I can't think of a way to design a study that would be ethical and valid. Maybe somebody has better ideas than me, idk.

Small children don't generally have a vacabulaty for such things. If they live around abusive adults and adults who use drugs, that's just the way the world as they know it. (Thus, questions like, allegedly, "What's the difference between this and Daddy's marriage lessons?")

If a researcher were to try to complete a study by trying to give the children enough perspective to actively offer information, the researcher could rightfully be accused of implanting false ideas. It would be very difficult to know if the children's reports were accurate.

Add to that the fact that traumatic events aren't always remembered and the fact that drugs affect the mind, and children are pretty much out as far as subjects from whom valid data could be gathered for a study like this.

I suppose you could have a group of confirmed child sexual abuse victims whose caretakers also abuse drugs, a group of confirmed child sexual abuse victims whose parents probably don't use drugs and a group of non-abused controls. You could try having them draw pictures and then, if a syringe turned up in the drawings, asking open-ended questions about what happened next. But how would a researcher discriminate a story based on life experience about what could happen next when syringes are used from a real experience about what did happen next when a syringe was used? And how would any information about percentages of children actually being intentionally administered drugs in conjunction with sexual abuse work? How would information about the abuse itself be collected? What about mandatory reporting, DCFS and legal considerations?

Anyway..... all the problems that are part of this mess.
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document
_Rosebud
_Emeritus
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 6:04 pm

Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Rosebud »

And I suppose my next questions would be why would that be worth studying? What value would the research have after it was complete?

It is already obvious, in my opinion, that:

1) Humans are often cruel to each other
2) Children are vulnerable
3) Child sexual abuse exists
4) Drug abuse exists
5) Child sexual abuse is a serious crime with, hopefully, serious punishments
6) Predators don't want to get caught
7) Adults administer drugs to children, based on different incentives
8) Adults sexually abusing children may have incentives for administering drugs to the children during the abuse

Thus, it makes sense that children's reports of being given drugs during abuse, or adults' memories of having been given drugs during abuse that occurred during their childhood's may be accurate.

I don't think it's realistic to expect people educated in the behavioral sciences to immediately jump to the conclusion that any reports of drugs being administered to children during abuse must be false. Or, similarly, that reports of human excrement being administered to children must be false. They may be false, but they also may not be.

So, the existence of reports of the administration of drugs or human excrement is not therefore an indication that the whole or even those parts of the reports should be discredited or are fantastical.
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document
_Mary
_Emeritus
Posts: 1774
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

Rosebud wrote:And I suppose my next questions would be why would that be worth studying? What value would the research have after it was complete?

It is already obvious, in my opinion, that:

1) Humans are often cruel to each other
2) Children are vulnerable
3) Child sexual abuse exists
4) Drug abuse exists
5) Child sexual abuse is a serious crime with, hopefully, serious punishments
6) Predators don't want to get caught
7) Adults administer drugs to children, based on different incentives
8) Adults sexually abusing children may have incentives for administering drugs to the children during the abuse

Thus, it makes sense that children's reports of being given drugs during abuse, or adults' memories of having been given drugs during abuse that occurred during their childhood's may be accurate.

I don't think it's realistic to expect people educated in the behavioral sciences to immediately jump to the conclusion that any reports of drugs being administered to children during abuse must be false. Or, similarly, that reports of human excrement being administered to children must be false. They may be false, but they also may not be.

So, the existence of reports of the administration of drugs or human excrement is not therefore an indication that the whole or even those parts of the reports should be discredited or are fantastical.


Well said.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Rosebud
_Emeritus
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 6:04 pm

Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Rosebud »

Judge won’t dismiss lawsuit against Warren Jeffs, FLDS Church claiming ‘ritualistic sex abuse’

Fox 13: https://fox13now.com/2018/10/20/judge-w ... sex-abuse/
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document
Post Reply