Question for Dan Vogel

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_Dr. Shades
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Re: Question for Dan Vogel

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Exiled wrote:Is there any evidence of changes to the Book of Mormon manuscript from the time of dictation until printing?

Yes. Royal Skousen spent decades hunting them down. They've recently been published as a muti-volume work.

I heard that the first edition had variations in the text from one printed book to another.

Yes.

Is this correct and has anyone made a list of the changes?

Yes to the former, no to the latter.

Also, were the supposed changes between one first edition book to another material?

No. They were the equivalent of "typos" when the hard-type was manually reassembled to print more of pages X through Y.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

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_Dr Exiled
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Re: Question for Dan Vogel

Post by _Dr Exiled »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Exiled wrote:Is there any evidence of changes to the Book of Mormon manuscript from the time of dictation until printing?

Yes. Royal Skousen spent decades hunting them down. They've recently been published as a muti-volume work.

I heard that the first edition had variations in the text from one printed book to another.

Yes.

Is this correct and has anyone made a list of the changes?

Yes to the former, no to the latter.

Also, were the supposed changes between one first edition book to another material?

No. They were the equivalent of "typos" when the hard-type was manually reassembled to print more of pages X through Y.


Thanks Dr. Shades and a Haiku shall always be 5, 7, 5.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_Markk
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Re: Question for Dan Vogel

Post by _Markk »

Dan Vogel wrote:Markk,
Of course we can't document what Joseph Smith was thinking and when. The point is that the idea didn't suddenly occur to Joseph Smith to dictate a book in 1828. He tried to get the plates in 1823 and so he had five to six years to think about what he would dictate. Lucy Smith mentioned that Joseph Smith would tell the family stories about the ancient Americas as if he lived among them.


Yeah I remember reading that.

Sorry to ask so many questions, but what do you mean by "tried" to get the plates? The plates never existed, so is there a record of him in 28 speaking about the plates?
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
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Re: Question for Dan Vogel

Post by _canpakes »

Exiled wrote:
Dan Vogel wrote:Markk,
Of course we can't document what Joseph Smith was thinking and when. The point is that the idea didn't suddenly occur to Joseph Smith to dictate a book in 1828. He tried to get the plates in 1823 and so he had five to six years to think about what he would dictate. Lucy Smith mentioned that Joseph Smith would tell the family stories about the ancient Americas as if he lived among them.


Dan:

Is there any evidence of changes to the Book of Mormon manuscript from the time of dictation until printing? I heard that the first edition had variations in the text from one printed book to another. Is this correct and has anyone made a list of the changes? Also, were the supposed changes between one first edition book to another material?

Ex,

Slightly related to this is that the arrangement of the first edition was also not printed in the same 'verse structure' as what exists today:

"The differences in the chapter divisions between the first edition of the Book of Mormon and the 1981 edition are listed in this four-page chart. Chapters in the 1830 edition were longer, in part because the Book of Mormon was printed in narrative rather than verse form—what we would expect from a historical record. The text was first arranged into its present verses in the 1879 edition to facilitate the location of particular passages. Modern readers may be interested to see how the sections of the Book of Mormon were divided in the 1830 edition, which are divided along broad conceptual lines. For example, all of Jacob's speech in Jacob 2–3 and all of Alma's blessing to his son Corianton in Alma 39–42 were single chapters."

https://byustudies.byu.edu/charts/170-c ... 1-editions
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Re: Question for Dan Vogel

Post by _Dr Exiled »

Thanks for the information canpakes.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_grindael
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Re: Question for Dan Vogel

Post by _grindael »

Markk,

I don't speak for Dan, but I think he was just relaying the story that Smith later told, which (of course) is all we have, aside from the recollections of Lucy Smith & a few others. Joseph later claimed that he tried to get the "plates" in 1823 and was rebuffed by the angel/guardian.

I have been studying this time period of Smith's extensively for my book on his Spiritual Wife System, (believe it or not it all ties in), and the story is fascinating and Dan really adds to the narrative. I would recommend highly his 2005 book, "Making of A Prophet,". He explains a lot about this in the early chapters and makes all kinds of connections about Smith and his life with what is actually written in the Book of Mormon.

I've tried to come to grips with Dan's thought processes and how he makes some of the astounding connections that he does, and I'm at a loss. He must have a photographic memory or something. He writes in "Making",

Undoubtedly the most significant of Joseph Smith’s treasure quests occurred on a prominent hill that is now known to Latter-day Saints as the “Hill Cumorah,” situated on the east side of the Canandaigua Road about two miles south of the Chase cabin. At that time, the hill was on the property of Randall Robinson, who did not mind the occasional attention this hill received.43 Joseph’s involvement with Robinson’s hill began, according to Joseph’s own account, on the night and early morning hours of 21-22 September 1823. Earlier that evening, according to what Martin Harris later told Palmyra minister John A. Clark, Joseph had acted as seer for a local treasure-seeking expedition.44 It had been an especially propitious night for treasure hunting. The moon was full and the evening marked the autumnal equinox,45 but as usual, the seekers returned home empty-handed. Lucy, who by this time was attending Palmyra’s Western Presbyterian Church and may have begun to have misgivings about her husband’s involvement in magic, did not mention the digging that occurred on this astrologically significant night. Instead, she related that her family stayed up late into the evening “conversing upon the subject of the diversity of churches that had risen up in the world and the many thousand opinions in existence as to the truths contained in scripture.”46 Not an unlikely topic for a late Sunday night conversation, but Lucy probably minimized the intensity of this discussion since young Joseph’s reaction was more pronounced than usual.

Lucy noticed that seventeen-year-old Joseph seemed withdrawn as if in deep contemplation. He was quiet but not unaffected. Whatever he may have felt about his part in the treasure hunt, it was undoubtedly his parents’ religious turmoil that most stirred him, in the words of his mother, “to reflect more deeply than common persons of his age upon everything of a religious nature.”47 Joseph more than any of his siblings well understood the religious quandary in which his parents found themselves. There was much that he could say, but in the swirl of emotional debate, who would hear him? Besides, he was just a youth with little standing or authority in such matters. More than anything, Joseph’s silence likely resulted from his ambivalent feelings and the high emotional price of choosing sides. Very little was resolved when the Smiths finally retired for the night.

As Joseph lay in his bed, likely troubled by his family’s religious conflicts, he may [p. 44]have prayed for deliverance—perhaps asking God to soften his parents’ hearts. He may have asked that God would give him the words to convert his father, but he knew that words alone were not sufficient to persuade. Joseph Sr.’s intellectualized approach to the Bible and Universalistic beliefs seemed like impassible barriers to Joseph Jr. From his failed attempt to persuade him in 1820/21, Joseph knew that his father resisted visionary experiences. Joseph’s line of authority with his father was his gift of seeing. Perhaps for the good of the family and his father’s future welfare, Joseph might call upon that influence to bring his father to repentance and give his family the religious harmony they so badly needed. These were desperate thoughts, but in Joseph’s mind, the situation would have called for decisive action.

He would later claim that his mind was preoccupied only with thoughts of his unworthiness before God and that he began to pray “to Almighty God for forgiveness of all my sins and follies, and also for a manifestation to me that I might know of my state and standing before him.”48 Shortly an “angel” appeared at his bedside, declaring that his sins were forgiven and that God had a special work for him to perform. This messenger proceeded to tell Joseph about a history of the ancient inhabitants of America written on gold plates and hidden in a nearby hill.

As with his first vision, Joseph’s evolving accounts of his 1823 encounter with the angel make it difficult to recover the core story. [Of the claimed "first vision"] Most noticeably, his accounts differ from those of his family and friends because he concealed the story’s original folk-­magic appeal. He also added material intended to serve later purposes. In 1834-35, through his assistant Oliver Cowdery, who at that time would be writing a series of open letters to Mormons who had been expelled from “Zion” (Independence), Missouri, Joseph had the angel quote long passages from the Bible about the gathering of Israel in the last days. In 1838 the angel would paraphrase Malachi 4:5 concerning the coming of Elijah, alluding to Smith’s and Cowdery’s 1836 reception of priesthood keys from this Old Testament prophet. The manner in which Smith introduced later priesthood concepts into his 1823 interview with the angel makes one wonder if he ever viewed the vision as an empirical event. Indeed, it is difficult to treat as historical an experience which Joseph himself so freely recast. His willingness to change this and other visions in order to meet later needs prompts one to wonder whether the visions were invented to serve utilitarian purposes. I will treat Smith’s visions in terms of the evolving stories he told people about them rather than as actual events. When the anachronistic material is removed—the terms “angel” and “Urim and Thummim” and the reference to Elijah returning to reveal the “priesthood”—a story not unlike the folkloric accounts of treasures and spirit guardians emerges.

On the morning of his sleepless night, Joseph went out to work in the fields with his father and Alvin who were cutting wheat to be stored for the winter. Alvin, observing [p. 45]that Joseph stopped working and seemed preoccupied about something, urged him to work more diligently. Joseph Sr. soon noticed that Joseph had stopped again; observing his exhaustion, he sent him back to the house.

Joseph left but would not make it home. Instead, as he recalled, “in attempting to cross the fence out of the field where we were, my strength entirely failed me and I fell helpless on the ground and for a time was quite unconscious of any thing.”49 It was here, midway between his father in the field and his mother in the house that Joseph decided to make his midnight musings reality. The transformation had not come easily. Joseph had suffered a great deal of anguish and struggle. He hesitated, knowing that he would be plunged deeper into deception and fantasy but saw it as the only way.

He would later claim that he waked to the appearance of the same messenger who “again related unto me all that he had related to me the previous night, and commanded me to go to my father and tell him of the vision and commandments which I had received.”50 In Lucy’s version, the messenger asks Joseph why he had not told his father of the plates, to which Joseph responded: “I was afraid my father would not believe me.” But the messenger assured Joseph that his father would “believe every word you say to him.”51 Perhaps there is an element of truth in these accounts. Joseph hesitated until he felt prompted to proceed with his plan. Confirmation perhaps came as a “burning in the bosom,” which he would later describe as a method of receiving revelation.52

When Joseph returned to his father and brother, he told them an amazing but not entirely unfamiliar story. In relating it, Joseph did not stray far from his father’s belief in hidden treasures and guardian spirits. Unlike the “vision” Smith would later narrate for an audience that would be unreceptive to folk-magic, the earliest accounts identify the heavenly messenger as a “spirit” who visited Joseph three times in a “dream.” About June 1829, Martin Harris told people in Rochester that Joseph had been “visited by the spirit of the Almighty in a dream, and informed that in a certain hill … was deposited a Golden Bible” and that “after a third visit from the same spirit in a dream, he proceeded to the spot.”53 Reporting the activities of the first Mormon missionaries in Ohio under the direction of Oliver Cowdery, the Painesville Telegraph for 30 November 1830 would report: “The new gospel they say was found in Ontario Co., N.Y. and was discovered by an angel of light, appearing in a dream to a man by the name of Smith.”54

Locating treasures through dreams was not uncommon in Smith’s day, and thrice-repeated dreams were especially significant.55 In 1786 Silas Hamilton, a prominent leader of Whitingham, Vermont, recorded twenty-one instances of people from various locations throughout New England claiming to have located mines and [p. 46]other valuable deposits through dreams. In one instance, a “Mr. Barns of Gilford [New Hampshire] … dreamed three times in one night about said hogshead of money.”56 In her 1835 book, Traits of American Life, Sarah Josepha Hale published a late eighteenth-century legend about a Deacon Bascom, one of the founders of Newport, New Hampshire. One night the deacon was visited three times in a dream by a man clothed in black who told him where to find a silver mine under a large stone. When he proceeded to the spot and found the stone, he hesitated to uncover the treasure. After much anguish, he concluded that the dream was inspired by the devil and would bring ruin to his children, so he returned home. http://signaturebookslibrary.org/joseph-smith-04/


So yes, Joseph knew that the plates were not real, but made them a reality in what he told to others as Dan explains. What is so important about Dan's book is his deconstruction of the actual Book of Mormon and all the hidden meanings in the book [from his life and the Era that he lived in] that Smith conveyed when he wrote it.

I think it clinches the one author theory, that Smith wrote it himself, and I think this was the purpose of Dan going into it in such depth in his book. Again, I don't speak for Dan, but that is what I think.
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Re: Question for Dan Vogel

Post by _grindael »

Later, as Dan also explains, Joseph made the plates real, by constructing a set out of tin (probably), and dislocated his thumb doing so. That is what he brought home and had a box made for. So Joseph, in his mind, had REAL plates. So what if he made them? They were real, and what he said was on them was real. It was the basis for his prophetic career, and why he never really spoke about that time period later in life. He might even have come to believe it himself. "If I had not experienced what I had, I would not have believed it myself," or something like that... He might have had dreams that were so real to him, he thought it was actually reality. He had an epiphany in 21/22, he had dreams of an "angel" or treasure guardian. He was shown the location of a "record", and tried to dig it up. When he failed, he so wanted it to be real, that he made it so, and really may have had to, if he was sincere in his thought that he could actually DO SO. When he failed, it would not have looked good, so he fabricated the plates and pawned them off with the story he had been telling. The Book of Mormon was another "slippery treasure" that got away, but Joseph didn't want to let it go, or report back that he was a failure. So he made it real.
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Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
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Re: Question for Dan Vogel

Post by _Markk »

grindael wrote:Later, as Dan also explains, Joseph made the plates real, by constructing a set out of tin (probably), and dislocated his thumb doing so. That is what he brought home and had a box made for. So Joseph, in his mind, had REAL plates. So what if he made them? They were real, and what he said was on them was real. It was the basis for his prophetic career, and why he never really spoke about that time period later in life. He might even have come to believe it himself. "If I had not experienced what I had, I would not have believed it myself," or something like that... He might have had dreams that were so real to him, he thought it was actually reality. He had an epiphany in 21/22, he had dreams of an "angel" or treasure guardian. He was shown the location of a "record", and tried to dig it up. When he failed, he so wanted it to be real, that he made it so, and really may have had to, if he was sincere in his thought that he could actually DO SO. When he failed, it would not have looked good, so he fabricated the plates and pawned them off with the story he had been telling. The Book of Mormon was another "slippery treasure" that got away, but Joseph didn't want to let it go, or report back that he was a failure. So he made it real.


I'll get his book. How does all this lend to the Book of Mormon narrative as we know it today?

We do not know the context of the lost pages...so if he was thinking about it, I was wondering if there are any other writings or thoughts from Smith that compliment the Book of Mormon story. I understand Lucy's statements, I just wonder if there was a rabbit trail complimenting the narrative.

I just got "Exiles in a Land of Liberty"...it seems like it will be a interesting read.

Winn, Kenneth H.. Exiles in a Land of Liberty: Mormons in America, 1830-1846 (Studies in Religion) (p. i). The University of North Carolina Press. Kindle Edition.

Thanks for you post I need to chew on it.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
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Re: Question for Dan Vogel

Post by _grindael »

Markk,

The link I provided has the book, (Signature books library) but I would buy it. It's worth it. I love my copy and hoping to someday bump into Dan and get him to sign it.

FYI, Dan's dog died yesterday and so he may be a bit preoccupied right now with grief, so he might not answer your comment for a while.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_Markk
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Re: Question for Dan Vogel

Post by _Markk »

grindael wrote:Markk,

The link I provided has the book, (Signature books library) but I would buy it. It's worth it. I love my copy and hoping to someday bump into Dan and get him to sign it.

FYI, Dan's dog died yesterday and so he may be a bit preoccupied right now with grief, so he might not answer your comment for a while.


Thanks, losing a dog is a bummer, I had to put my buddy down last year...it hurts.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
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