ClarkGoble wrote:I can see his being carried away - or at least being mistaken and not checking obvious sources to see if Alma was a male name. But that's not really lying, is it? It seems it's being mistaken. One might criticize him for a bit of undue confidence when he'd not done sufficient research. A little humility is in order when one hasn't checked a null hypothesis. But it's not really lying so much as carelessness and perhaps doing a superficial job.
Where did he get the idea that the use of Alma, "... has occasioned much comment from critics." to the point of publishing it in the Ensign?
I assume he's referring to Nibley's earlier work on the name when he found it in the Bar Kokhba documents. Checking that was 1973. So you can accuse him of using dated criticisms (I think the Tanners of late have been criticizing it as an occult name) Remember not all or even most critics are naturalistic critics. Although to be fair that has been changing over the last decade as Evangelicals worry less about Mormons and more about losing kids to the Nones. The contemporary more academic critics of Alma as a name are far more sophisticated than what Dan puts here. They criticize the etymology in the Bar Kokhba letters for instance. However among the more ignorant Evangelical crowd who tend to read the Bible as if everything were written in plain English Alma was a common attack. It's just getting harder to find that sort of Evangelical attack these days. It was more common when I was young. In any case, as others note, it's a male name in Joseph's environment.
So at best this is less Dan lying than it is Dan talking about arguments from his youth. Of course now that Gen-X is getting older and older I find myself doing the same thing. So I have to be careful about criticizing others because I instinctively assume criticisms from my youth are contemporary. And Dan's much older than I am.
ClarkGoble wrote: I can see his being carried away - or at least being mistaken and not checking obvious sources to see if Alma was a male name. But that's not really lying, is it? It seems it's being mistaken. One might criticize him for a bit of undue confidence when he'd not done sufficient research. A little humility is in order when one hasn't checked a null hypothesis. But it's not really lying so much as carelessness and perhaps doing a superficial job.
The problem I have with this is my personal interaction with Daniel C. Peterson from about ten years ago, when he admitted to me he did know Alma was a man's name in the time and locale of Joseph Smith.
Is it possible Professor Peterson didn't know this back in 2000 when he wrote the article for the Ensign? Yes, it is possible.
But given Professor Peterson's past prevarications, even as recently as this year when he claimed in a Deseret News article that there was no suppression of the early accounts of Joseph Smith's First Vision, I am not holding out a lot of hope.
I am thinking we need a part II update to your Selling Your Soul for Apologetics podcast!
ClarkGoble wrote:The contemporary more academic critics of Alma as a name are far more sophisticated than what Dan puts here. They criticize the etymology in the Bar Kokhba letters for instance.
...
So at best this is less Dan lying than it is Dan talking about arguments from his youth. Of course now that Gen-X is getting older and older I find myself doing the same thing. So I have to be careful about criticizing others because I instinctively assume criticisms from my youth are contemporary. And Dan's much older than I am.
Thanks for the link, that was a very interesting back and forth in the comments section. I suppose we can guess as to which critics Mr. Peterson was referencing, but, as he does, staying vague on an assertion and letting his readers fill in the details seems to be his lifelong M.O. when it comes to his musings. I mean, what else is he going to do? Make the mistake of asserting something concretely and then be subject to a Jenkins-esque takedown? I'm not sure he's that eager to subject himself to the rigors of having to provide evidences for his assertions.
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Is he really close to 400 lbs? Send that man to Japan for some sumo training.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen
I think the Alma argument is very old, made by some critics in the 1830's. It was (as far as I know), discarded way back then for just the reasons explained here, that those few critics were wrong. This kind of argument, what Joseph should or should not have known is a red herring, and is all they've got. This is the guy that brought us tapirs. That's all we need to know about his seriousness as an historian.
And really, why even read his garbage? It's what he wants. If he didn't have critics on his back all the time, he'd have nothing else to live for.
Let's RIP this dodo and let him sink into obscurity where he belongs, with all his FAIRMORMON cohorts.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door; Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors. One focal point in a random world can change your direction: One step where events converge may alter your perception.
OK, I found a modern quote on Alma and who made it...
"Alma is supposed to be a prophet of God and of Jewish ancestry in the Book of Mormon. In Hebrew Alma means a betrothed virgin maiden-hardly a fitting name for a man." - Walter Martin, "Maze of Mormonism".
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door; Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors. One focal point in a random world can change your direction: One step where events converge may alter your perception.
grindael wrote:OK, I found a modern quote on Alma and who made it...
"Alma is supposed to be a prophet of God and of Jewish ancestry in the Book of Mormon. In Hebrew Alma means a betrothed virgin maiden-hardly a fitting name for a man." - Walter Martin, "Maze of Mormonism".
If nothing else, Walter Martin is a good reminder of just how crappy Evangelical criticism has been over the years.
docCam wrote:...staying vague on an assertion and letting his readers fill in the details seems to be his lifelong M.O. when it comes to his musings. I mean, what else is he going to do? Make the mistake of asserting something concretely and then be subject to a Jenkins-esque takedown? I'm not sure he's that eager to subject himself to the rigors of having to provide evidences for his assertions.
That's a huge point, Doc. That debate was the ultimate no-win situation. Hamblin was destroyed by entering the fight, Peterson looked like a coward staying out. I've wondered how Hamblin saw that. From his perspective, if he really believed what he was saying, it must have been unfathomable to read Peterson's interminable delay tactics. "Oh I will respond. I have plenty to say. And I will say it... soon. Not now, but... soon."
pg. 198, attacking the Tanners. Footnote of "critics" using Alma argument is only Walter Martin and an obscure Evangelical Magazine.
Oh my, how all those critics just rose up and mocked this!
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door; Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors. One focal point in a random world can change your direction: One step where events converge may alter your perception.
If nothing else, Walter Martin is a good reminder of just how crappy Evangelical criticism has been over the years.
Trying to debunk Mormonism using the Bible is a bad idea when their interpretations are as wacky as those from Mormonism.
Martin published his book in 1979 and so should have researched this better. The Tanner's simply focused on where they thought Joseph got the name from.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door; Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors. One focal point in a random world can change your direction: One step where events converge may alter your perception.
