"Lord" and "Satan".

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_aussieguy55
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"Lord" and "Satan".

Post by _aussieguy55 »

Can you explain the verses 2 Samuel 24:: 4 " Lord" and Chron 21:1 "Satan"
strange

Chron 21:1

21 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and the commanders of the troops, “Go and count the Israelites from Beersheba to Dan. Then report back to me so that I may know how many there are.”
2 Samuel 24:: 4
"And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel and he moved David against them to say Go, number Israel and Judah"
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_KevinSim
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Re: "Lord" and "Satan".

Post by _KevinSim »

Granted that LDS theology has it that Satan has been working in opposition to God since the War in Heaven, but I have heard from some non-LDS sources that Jews in the beginning didn't really believe precisely that. Those sources have seemed to imply that Satan pretty much did God's dirty jobs for Him. That might explain the discrepancy between 2 Samuel 24 and Chronicles 21. Now, if you're looking for an explanation that coincides with LDS theology, then I'm not sure I can help you!
KevinSim

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_I have a question
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Re: "Lord" and "Satan".

Post by _I have a question »

KevinSim wrote:Granted that LDS theology has it that Satan has been working in opposition to God since the War in Heaven, but I have heard from some non-LDS sources that Jews in the beginning didn't really believe precisely that. Those sources have seemed to imply that Satan pretty much did God's dirty jobs for Him. That might explain the discrepancy between 2 Samuel 24 and Chronicles 21. Now, if you're looking for an explanation that coincides with LDS theology, then I'm not sure I can help you!

Well, not quite. Satan doing things in supposed opposition to God is an integral part of the plan of salvation. Without Satan there is no agency, no plan, no lads doctrinal point to this life. So, according to Mormonism, Satan is actually working with God as a sort of stalking horse, to facilitate delivery of the plan.

All Satan needs to do to defeat Gods purpose, which is what we are supposed to believe Satan is trying to do, is to stop tempting and leading people astray. Without temptation the plan fails.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Fence Sitter
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Re: "Lord" and "Satan".

Post by _Fence Sitter »

According to The New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocrypha: New Revised Standard Version

This same story is found in 1 Chr 21, which says that Satan rather than the anger of the Lord incited David. Is is only in postexilic texts that (the) Satan becomes important in biblical Israel. Both reflect the typical biblical belief that natural calamity is the result of human sin. It is not clear why taking a census was sinful. Some scholars suggest it was a sign of David's inordinate pride or that the census was meant to bring about unacceptable changes in Israelite society..... Another possibility is that all men enrolled in the census were required to be ritually pure as when they went to battle, and this requirement was easily broken.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_aussieguy55
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Re: "Lord" and "Satan".

Post by _aussieguy55 »

Two of the best known manifestations of Satan within Christendom were developed by the early Christian church:the identification of Satan with the serpent in the Garden of Eden and with Satan as Lucifer the fallen angel. Although normatively accepted by most Christians as true these biblical interpretations of Satan are based on certain reading of the scriptures that would have been considered foreign to the ears of earlier Jewish biblical commentators" p.82.

I found this interesting comment regarding Satan in The Quest for the Historical Satan.

"The second image of Satan as a fallen angel is derived by the early Church Fathers through a unique interpretation of an Isaiah passage. The Prophet Isaiah proclaims to his contemporaries that the kings of Babylon will eventually face their downfall. Specifically he he writes "Oh shining one son of the dawn how have you fallen from the heavens. You who have weakened the nations are cut down to the ground" (14;12). No Jewish writing had ever made the connection of fallen angels with this Isaiah passage. Origin was the first to do so among the early Christians....Nevertheless by the end of human history because Satan is part of God's divine plan he too will be saved and evil will cease to exist" pp.81-82

The Hebrew word for "shining one" as used in the passage by Isaiah is hellel which was translated with the Greek word phosphorus literally "light-bearer" the word is also used for "morning star"When Jerome translated the "shining one" into Latin for the Vulgate he purposely chose the Latin word lucifer. Hence lucifer "the shining one" becomes Lucifer the king of Hell reinterpreting the Isaiah passage to refer to Satan's expulsion from heaven. Even though today we associate Satan with the powers of darkness the word "Lucifer" means "the light bringer" a positive image used in the scriptures.p.82.
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_mentalgymnast
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Re: "Lord" and "Satan".

Post by _mentalgymnast »

I have a question wrote:Well, not quite. Satan doing things in supposed opposition to God is an integral part of the plan of salvation.


Yes, we learn that in the temple and in the the scriptures.

I have a question wrote:Without Satan there is no agency, no plan, no lds doctrinal point to this life.


Yes, that is true.

I have a question wrote:So, according to Mormonism, Satan is actually working with God as a sort of stalking horse, to facilitate delivery of the plan.


Yes, the actions of Satan dovetail with the plan of eternal progression and making choices between good and evil.

I have a question wrote:All Satan needs to do to defeat Gods purpose, which is what we are supposed to believe Satan is trying to do, is to stop tempting and leading people astray.


Yet for some reason it appears that people are tempted and going astray all the time. So one could say, with respect to there being an actual Satan, that he is still in business.

I have a question wrote:Without temptation the plan fails.


Yes, without opposition we would not be able to make choices between various alternatives that either stimulate the progressive natures of our being or inhibit the full development of our natures and thus 'damn' us.

Regards,
MG
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Re: "Lord" and "Satan".

Post by _I have a question »

mentalgymnast wrote:
I have a question wrote:Well, not quite. Satan doing things in supposed opposition to God is an integral part of the plan of salvation.


Yes, we learn that in the temple and in the the scriptures.

I have a question wrote:Without Satan there is no agency, no plan, no LDS doctrinal point to this life.


Yes, that is true.

I have a question wrote:So, according to Mormonism, Satan is actually working with God as a sort of stalking horse, to facilitate delivery of the plan.


Yes, the actions of Satan dovetail with the plan of eternal progression and making choices between good and evil.

I have a question wrote:All Satan needs to do to defeat Gods purpose, which is what we are supposed to believe Satan is trying to do, is to stop tempting and leading people astray.


Yet for some reason it appears that people are tempted and going astray all the time. So one could say, with respect to there being an actual Satan, that he is still in business.

I have a question wrote:Without temptation the plan fails.


Yes, without opposition we would not be able to make choices between various alternatives that either stimulate the progressive natures of our being or inhibit the full development of our natures and thus 'damn' us.

Regards,
MG


So is Satan in cahoots with God and knowingly and deliberately helping Him deliver the plan (which leads to serious questions about the supposed war in heaven narrative)?
Or is the guy, who in a fit of pique convinced a third of humanity to rebel against the plan, dumber than a door post who doesn’t realise he’s actually helping the thing he’s supposedly hell bent on destroying?
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_mentalgymnast
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Re: "Lord" and "Satan".

Post by _mentalgymnast »

I have a question wrote:So is Satan in cahoots with God and knowingly and deliberately helping Him deliver the plan (which leads to serious questions about the supposed war in heaven narrative)?


I look at it as being more along the line that Light (in all of its various manifestations) exists. That darkness (in all of its various manifestations) exists. They JUST exist. Sentience (in all of its various manifestations) exists. Sentience gravitates towards light and/or darkness. Or both. Through choice. So in the sense that Satan (as we refer to him nowadays...) is a sentient entity that chooses darkness rather than light, then yes, by doing so he is helping God by providing the cosmic structure/mechanism for organized opposition between forces of light and darkness.

I have a question wrote:Or is the guy, who in a fit of pique convinced a third of humanity to rebel against the plan, dumber than a door post who doesn’t realise he’s actually helping the thing he’s supposedly hell bent on destroying?


That's an excellent question. One I've asked myself many times. In the temple especially.

I don't know that I can help you much here. It's something I think about at times without coming to any sort of a sure fire explanation and/or being able to resolve the issue of Satan being "dumber than a door post". Whether or not the answer lies in our understanding of the nature of time and space, or some other abstract or other worldly constructions/realities that I simply can't understand, who knows?

I do find Satan's apparent memory lapses between worlds somewhat weird. I don't get it.

Regards,
MG
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Re: "Lord" and "Satan".

Post by _I have a question »

mentalgymnast wrote:I do find Satan's apparent memory lapses between worlds somewhat weird. I don't get it.

Regards,
MG


It’s as if he’s a man-made character whose actions and personalities have had bits added over time to suit some peoples way of thinking and the agenda they wish to sell...
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_mentalgymnast
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Re: "Lord" and "Satan".

Post by _mentalgymnast »

I have a question wrote:
It’s as if...


Granted, IHAQ, there are a lot of examples we could point to where we can preface our presupposition with the words..."It's as if".

It is easy and it is even somewhat natural to go with a naturalistic explanation. I've gone that route at times. Many times. It's hard NOT to do that when you can see that there are some unexplained/unresolved "huh's?" that get in the way.

Regards,
MG
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