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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 2:25 pm 
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Analytics wrote:
In terms of a social experiment that makes a point and starts a conversation, this one was a grand-slam home run.

No, it will do more harm than good. We don't want Mormons to think there are many anti-Mormon hoaxers spreading fake news. It was a really bad idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 2:43 pm 
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
Analytics wrote:
In terms of a social experiment that makes a point and starts a conversation, this one was a grand-slam home run.

No, it will do more harm than good. We don't want Mormons to think there are many anti-Mormon hoaxers spreading fake news. It was a really bad idea.

Will it do more harm than good? I don't know. But this is a different type of fake news. It would be like somebody at Breitbert making up a totally fake story about how Hillary Clinton is a really great person so that it would make Democrats delirious with happiness.

"Fake news" isn't like that. This is something else. Whether it ends up doing more harm than good or not, we should be able to agree that this clearly illustrates a gulf between who the leaders really are, and who the membership wishes they were.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 2:47 pm 
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Analytics wrote:
Will it do more harm than good? I don't know. But this is a different type of fake news. It would be like somebody at Breitbert making up a totally fake story about how Hillary Clinton is a really great person so that it would make Democrats delirious with happiness.

"Fake news" isn't like that. This is something else. Whether it ends up doing more harm than good or not, we should be able to agree that this clearly illustrates a gulf between who the leaders really are, and who the membership wishes they were.
Emphasis mine. I can agree that it highlights this gulf. I'm just uncertain that members that are battling that gulf weren't already painfully aware of the divide. I'm also curious if it may trigger a cog-dis response in them, causing them to question their thinking that the leaders should be different. I can appreciate the "wait and see" mindset though as the point is a bit moot. Good or bad, the cat is out at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 2:53 pm 
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Analytics wrote:
"Fake news" isn't like that. This is something else. Whether it ends up doing more harm than good or not, we should be able to agree that this clearly illustrates a gulf between who the leaders really are, and who the membership wishes they were.

I understand, but it was a hoax. We don't want Mormons to think there is an army of hoaxers online trying to destroy the church.


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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:05 pm 
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Xenophon wrote:
Analytics wrote:
Will it do more harm than good? I don't know. But this is a different type of fake news. It would be like somebody at Breitbert making up a totally fake story about how Hillary Clinton is a really great person so that it would make Democrats delirious with happiness.

"Fake news" isn't like that. This is something else. Whether it ends up doing more harm than good or not, we should be able to agree that this clearly illustrates a gulf between who the leaders really are, and who the membership wishes they were.
Emphasis mine. I can agree that it highlights this gulf. I'm just uncertain that members that are battling that gulf weren't already painfully aware of the divide. I'm also curious if it may trigger a cog-dis response in them, causing them to question their thinking that the leaders should be different. I can appreciate the "wait and see" mindset though as the point is a bit moot. Good or bad, the cat is out at this point.


I read some of the transcript from that 83 minute video I posted (the fact that somebody took the time to transcribe most of it shows how impactful it is). The sister had a ton of built up pain and frustration about how the Church just hasn't been able to quite let go of its racist heritage, and this caused her to blurt all of it out. This is causing more people to listen to her than did before. I hope it was cathartic for her.

Her thoughts reminded me a lot of my own mother. Mom was a deeply committed Latter-day Saint who was married to a never-mo. Various things she heard at church--things like the comment in Relief Society that basically said, "Whatever you do, DO NOT allow your children to date non-members, because you end up marrying who you date [so if they date a non-member, they will tragically end up like Sister Analytics]!"

The Church has some things going for it. It teaches an ideal that some people find deeply moving. Its Achilles heel is that it just can't deliver on that ideal for various reasons, not the least of which is the fact that it just ain't true.

That's the real problem and the real cause of whatever hurt people feel. Don't blame the messenger.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:08 pm 
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
Analytics wrote:

In terms of a social experiment that makes a point and starts a conversation, this one was a grand-slam home run.


No, it will do more harm than good. We don't want Mormons to think there are many anti-Mormon hoaxers spreading fake news. It was a really bad idea.


Hey, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is totally guilty of spreading FAKE news. Just look at the Explanations of the Facsimiles they have posted on their website. Those Explanations are fake Egyptian translations. Does the church correct them?

Nope.

The church is guilty of sin. The church is an evil and vile institution and deserves to have its ass kicked.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:09 pm 
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
Analytics wrote:

"Fake news" isn't like that. This is something else. Whether it ends up doing more harm than good or not, we should be able to agree that this clearly illustrates a gulf between who the leaders really are, and who the membership wishes they were.


I understand, but it was a hoax. We don't want Mormons to think there is an army of hoaxers online trying to destroy the church.



I am curious why this is seen as an attempt to destroy the church. The complaint seems to be that this hoax hurt people because it made them confront a pain that was being caused by the church itself.

Many members believe that such an apology would make the church better. If that is so, why is a hoax that pretends to do something that would make the church better be considered an attempt to destroy it?

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Many members believe that such an apology would make the church better.


But most members don't think it was a mistake. With my Mormon eyes I see it as an attempt to ridicule the church. But I don't know. We will have to see. Hopefully I does do more good than harm.


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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:22 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
I am curious why this is seen as an attempt to destroy the church. The complaint seems to be that this hoax hurt people because it made them confront a pain that was being caused by the church itself.

Many members believe that such an apology would make the church better. If that is so, why is a hoax that pretends to do something that would make the church better be considered an attempt to destroy it?


This hoax is going to have a definite effect on a set of members. It's going to get some members thinking outside the box and wondering more and more about why the church did what it did and why the church can't just admit that it was racist.

There will be thousands of Latter-day Saints that will end up leaving the church over this straw. Well done, Jonathan Streeter -- you just cost the church millions of dollars in future lost tithing revenue.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:48 pm 
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And you sir, Mr. Young, are a piece of garbage.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 3:59 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:02 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:11 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
moksha wrote:
That is why they felt such emotion; they wanted the Church to do the right thing. There is no deficiency or foolishness in that desire.

It is foolish for a faithful member of the church to think that God is apologizing through his prophets.

God never had anything to apologize for, since the supreme being never had any part of this racial ban. It is the institution that needs to render an apology. The trouble is that the Brethren regard their Übermenschen status as being threatened by an apology which they regard as a sign of weakness among mere human mortals.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:20 pm 
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moksha wrote:
God never had anything to apologize for, since the supreme being never had any part of this racial ban. It is the institution that needs to render an apology. The trouble is that the Brethren regard their Übermenschen status as being threatened by an apology which they regard as a sign of weakness among mere human mortals.


Correct, and as I said above, "It is foolish for a faithful member of the church to THINK that God is apologizing through his prophets".

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:28 pm 
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:
Many members believe that such an apology would make the church better.


But most members don't think it was a mistake. With my Mormon eyes I see it as an attempt to ridicule the church. But I don't know. We will have to see. Hopefully I does do more good than harm.


The church has admitted in its own essay that past statements regarding the origin of the doctrine are wrong. So when you say that most members don't think "it" was a mistake, I am not sure what "it: refers to.

Let's say that most members think that somehow God really was involved in the ban but that the leaders and others have defended it incorrectly. At this point we can also agree on the fact the current leadership is not able to explain why the ban occurred. I see this essay as an attempt to draw attention to the fact that the current leadership is unable to explain why past leadership made those claims and is unable to apologize for those mistakes. I do not see the hoax as an attempt to destroy the church so much as an attempt to change it.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:30 pm 
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cwald wrote:
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The African saints today must know that Joseph Fielding Smith never ordained a single black man to the church. The African saints must know that President Smith never thought blacks worthy in the sight of God to hold the priesthood but he believed the mark of Cain was the Law of God. If only the African saints had a little more knowledge about the cult they have joined.

I predict the African LDS church will revolt once they learn more about what Mormon prophets thought regarding the priesthood ban. Ultimately, they will ransack the temples and burn their churches to the ground.

LDS apologists who defend their racist prophets are just as vile as they were. Disgusting they are!

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:49 am 
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When the church spokesman (I grew up thinking the prophet was the spokesman, but I was wrong) issues a press release stating that the church actually DIDN'T apologize for its past racist statements, how will it look?

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 8:33 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
When the church spokesman (I grew up thinking the prophet was the spokesman, but I was wrong) issues a press release stating that the church actually DIDN'T apologize for its past racist statements, how will it look?


The church can't apologize and at the same time maintain the status quo of claiming a divine connection had by holy prophets. Imagine a set of balancing scales: One side has prophets who speak for God and the other is truth. If the church is really what it claims to be the scales will be balanced with prophets on one side of the scale and truth on the other. But, if the prophets are fake then they have no real weight and therefore the truth will prevail independently and the scales will tip.

If the Mormon church was really true and their prophets were who they say they are then the scales would look like this:

Image

But, if the prophets are fake then the scales will tip because truth always prevails.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:32 am 
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Shulem wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:
I am curious why this is seen as an attempt to destroy the church. The complaint seems to be that this hoax hurt people because it made them confront a pain that was being caused by the church itself.

Many members believe that such an apology would make the church better. If that is so, why is a hoax that pretends to do something that would make the church better be considered an attempt to destroy it?


This hoax is going to have a definite effect on a set of members. It's going to get some members thinking outside the box and wondering more and more about why the church did what it did and why the church can't just admit that it was racist.

There will be thousands of Latter-day Saints that will end up leaving the church over this straw. Well done, Jonathan Streeter -- you just cost the church millions of dollars in future lost tithing revenue.

Image


I wonder what the effect would have been if instead of a hoax on racism, this November it was a fake apology for the policy on Gays. Would you be congratulating Streeter?


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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:34 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
I wonder what the effect would have been if instead of a hoax on racism, this November it was a fake apology for the policy on Gays. Would you be congratulating Streeter?


Absolutely, yes!

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 10:16 am 
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Tacenda on MD&D put a you tube video up of the guy who made this "fake" apology. It is amazing..I am off to work...so check it out.


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