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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:52 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Mormon dialogue & discussion board

Gray wrote:
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Oh my goodness! I am stunned!!!



Ginger Snaps wrote:
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So am I, but thrilled too! This is truly a historic moment.



Bluebell wrote:
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I couldn't even get through it without crying. Finally.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Fools! Poor weepy Bluebell.
WOW

What a bunch of f'n MORmONS

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:55 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Mormon dialogue & discussion board

Gray wrote:
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Oh my goodness! I am stunned!!!



Ginger Snaps wrote:
Image

So am I, but thrilled too! This is truly a historic moment.



Bluebell wrote:
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I couldn't even get through it without crying. Finally.


Fools! Poor weepy Bluebell.

I can't blame them for hoping the Church would seek penitence for such a horrendous 130-year mistake. Repenting of wrongs is a cornerstone of these poster's belief system. The reason why this hoax apology was so touching was that members realize this apology is long overdue.

When Bluebell realized that she would have to lower her expectations of the Church doing what its scriptures preach, it understandably made her sad.

That is why they felt such emotion; they wanted the Church to do the right thing. There is no deficiency or foolishness in that desire.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 5:46 am 
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I know more than one woman abused by her husband. Sure, I could try to "open their eyes" by pretending that their husbands are apologizing for all the threats, gas-lighting, and shaming. I could write very nice, convincing letters, maybe have them delivered with flowers and chocolate. This is very much like the hoax by Jonathan Streeter.

(by the way, he did do an interview in his name for the SL Tribune about it.)


Last edited by Meadowchik on Fri May 18, 2018 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 5:54 am 
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I’d be interested in spending a penny on knowing the thoughts of those MDD posters who felt the spirit whilst reading what they thought was a First Presidency apology...

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:31 am 
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I have a question wrote:
I’d be interested in spending a penny on knowing the thoughts of those MDD posters who felt the spirit whilst reading what they thought was a First Presidency apology...


Suppose for a second that the presentation was really from the church and she continued in her weepy moments of joy to achieve full satisfaction that the church apologized. I can imagine on the next fast and testimony meeting that Bluebell would be getting up and testifying how she felt the Spirit so strongly and wept for joy as the Savior's love overshadowed her during her Internet reading. Members of the congregation would then feel the Spirit too and some would cry.

:lol:

That's Mormonism for you. Foolishness.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:37 am 
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malkie wrote:
I wonder if any faithful members felt the spirit as they read it.


One can only imagine. The Spirit works in mysterious ways. The Spirit suckered President Kimball and his counselors to purchase Mark Hoffman's forgeries using sacred church funds. It's obvious, the Spirit of Mormonism is nothing more than wild feelings that go amuck.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:01 am 
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Shulem wrote:
I have a question wrote:
I’d be interested in spending a penny on knowing the thoughts of those MDD posters who felt the spirit whilst reading what they thought was a First Presidency apology...


Suppose for a second that the presentation was really from the church and she continued in her weepy moments of joy to achieve full satisfaction that the church apologized. I can imagine on the next fast and testimony meeting that Bluebell would be getting up and testifying how she felt the Spirit so strongly and wept for joy as the Savior's love overshadowed her during her Internet reading. Members of the congregation would then feel the Spirit too and some would cry.


Mormons are prepared to rally behind and testify of both heads and tails. It’s like baptism melts their backbone.

Mormons (generally) do stand for something...whatever they are told they stand for. Even if it’s the opposite of what they were told to stand for yesterday. It won’t be long before Bluebell & Co are explaining exactly why the Church was right not to apologise. In fact, the about turn is already visible...

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:14 am 
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Quote:
“Today, in unity with such capable and impressive leaders as the national officials of the NAACP, we are impressed to call on people of this nation, and indeed, the entire world, to demonstrate greater civility, racial and ethnic harmony and mutual respect,”...
...said the White Bloke who refused to take the opportunity to apologise for the 100 years of institutional racism his organisation operated. Maybe he was waiting for the leaders of the NAACP to apologise to the world for their members skin colour?

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:35 am 
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moksha wrote:
I can't blame them for hoping the Church would seek penitence for such a horrendous 130-year mistake. Repenting of wrongs is a cornerstone of these poster's belief system. The reason why this hoax apology was so touching was that members realize this apology is long overdue.

When Bluebell realized that she would have to lower her expectations of the Church doing what its scriptures preach, it understandably made her sad.

That is why they felt such emotion; they wanted the Church to do the right thing. There is no deficiency or foolishness in that desire.
Well said, moksha. I feel for the members that wanted so very badly for this to be real. It wasn't that long ago that I was one of them. I remember hoping for a shift away from the hardline stances on homosexuality only to be met with the November policy. Being presented with a very well crafted message that perfectly encapsulates what you believe should be the response from an organization that is a part of your very being, only to have it ripped away... absolutely crushing.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:34 am 
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What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:44 am 
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Xenophon wrote:
I feel for the members that wanted so very badly for this to be real.


The church does not apologize. The leaders of the church are so lifted up in pride that their necks are stiffer than steel poles. Those men are some of the proudest and arrogant men to ever walk the earth. The apostles of Mormonism are so entrenched and brainwashed that they are incapable of expressing true humility to humanity. They think they act and speak for God and in so doing they cannot apologize for God.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:50 am 
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moksha wrote:
That is why they felt such emotion; they wanted the Church to do the right thing. There is no deficiency or foolishness in that desire.


The foolishness was in their thinking that God finally apologized through his prophets. How foolish is that? Since when does Mormon God ever apologize about anything? It is foolish for a faithful member of the church to think that God is apologizing through his prophets.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:51 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
I know more than one woman abused by her husband. Sure, I could try to "open their eyes" by pretending that their husbands are apologizing for all the threats, gas-lighting, and shaming. I could write very nice, convincing letters, maybe have them delivered with flowers and chocolate. This is very much like the hoax by Jonathan Streeter.

(by the way, he did do an interview in his name for the SL Tribune about it.)


How many of those abused women have husbands claiming that God is responsible for the abuse and not the husbands? Besides we are talking about institutional abuse by an organization to which membership is entirely voluntary. Hardly the same as a marriage. I don't think your analogy is very applicable.

What we are looking at is an institution claiming to be run by God. Those members, both black and white or of any color for whom this fake announcement caused pain, have just had a moment where they realized they are not in agreement with leadership claiming to know what God wants. That pain is the result of conflict they themselves have created and they should ask themselves why they are supporting such leadership rather than be angry at some momentary false hope.

To be honest I cannot understand why any informed black person would be a member of the LDS church. We have such an odious history of racism and racist leaders. Black members, by their very membership are supporting this institutionalized racism. Just as any native Americans who are members are supporting the racism against their very people pervasive in the Book of Mormon.

While the black issue is an important one in the church, in my opinion it is a shame that the person who created this very effective hoax used that issue rather than the gay one. I think there would have been a much greater effect on membership had he done this for gay issues. Would such a hoax have been very painful for gay members? Absolutely. But bringing change about in an organization like the LDS church is never a pain free process.

The LDS church was founded on white culturally based Christian fundamentalist 19th century beliefs. Those beliefs are being perpetuated today by a small group of ultra conservative elderly men born 80-90 years ago who still believe in many of those 19th century false beliefs and who refuse to acknowledge that the men who preceded them may have not been talking to God.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:01 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:
I know more than one woman abused by her husband. Sure, I could try to "open their eyes" by pretending that their husbands are apologizing for all the threats, gas-lighting, and shaming. I could write very nice, convincing letters, maybe have them delivered with flowers and chocolate. This is very much like the hoax by Jonathan Streeter.

(by the way, he did do an interview in his name for the SL Tribune about it.)


How many of those abused women have husbands claiming that God is responsible for the abuse and not the husbands? Besides we are talking about institutional abuse by an organization to which membership is entirely voluntary. Hardly the same as a marriage. I don't think your analogy is very applicable.

What we are looking at is an institution claiming to be run by God. Those members, both black and white or of any color for whom this fake announcement caused pain, have just had a moment where they realized they are not in agreement with leadership claiming to know what God wants. That pain is the result of conflict they themselves have created and they should ask themselves why they are supporting such leadership rather than be angry at some momentary false hope.

To be honest I cannot understand why any informed black person would be a member of the LDS church. We have such an odious history of racism and racist leaders. Black members, by their very membership are supporting this institutionalized racism. Just as any native Americans who are members are supporting the racism against their very people pervasive in the Book of Mormon.

While the black issue is an important one in the church, in my opinion it is a shame that the person who created this very effective hoax used that issue rather than the gay one. I think there would have been a much greater effect on membership had he done this for gay issues. Would such a hoax have been very painful for gay members? Absolutely. But bringing change about in an organization like the LDS church is never a pain free process.

The LDS church was founded on white culturally based Christian fundamentalist 19th century beliefs. Those beliefs are being perpetuated today by a small group of ultra conservative elderly men born 80-90 years ago who still believe in many of those 19th century false beliefs and who refuse to acknowledge that the men who preceded them may have not been talking to God.


Black people can be members for the same reasons white people are.

Perhaps you're not familiar with situations of trying to help people out of abusive marriages. And by the way, at least one of the husbands I referred to does use the God card to continue abusing. The other one probably does too. I can see tons of parallels between people injured by the church who still believe and those with abusive spouses. If you're interested, I'd be happy to go into more detail.


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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:31 am 
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Although I can agree with the sentiments that the church probably won't ever change and that if it does it will be a painful process, I think you're way off with the below remarks:
Fence Sitter wrote:
To be honest I cannot understand why any informed black person would be a member of the LDS church. We have such an odious history of racism and racist leaders. Black members, by their very membership are supporting this institutionalized racism. Just as any native Americans who are members are supporting the racism against their very people pervasive in the Book of Mormon.
Blacks, Native Americans or whomever can join the church, or any org, for a million different reasons. Their motives are their own as individuals and you have to let people sort through those things on their own. By your logic you would essentially ban blacks from participating in any part of American society, particularly the South, lest they be "supporting" institutionalized racism. The church's relationship with race isn't all that much worse than America's as a whole. Yes the LDS were very late to the party and I fully denounce the preisthood ban (not that anyone cares about my position on it) but it isn't like the world is now some magical, racism free wonderland. Minorities having to reconcile their place within a system that has historically (and often currently) placed them at sub-standard membership is not unique to Mormonism.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:40 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
Black people can be members for the same reasons white people are.

Of course they can but unlike white people there are reasons that a black person might feel less inclined to join.
Meadowchik wrote:
Perhaps you're not familiar with situations of trying to help people out of abusive marriages. And by the way, at least one of the husbands I referred to does use the God card to continue abusing. The other one probably does too. I can see tons of parallels between people injured by the church who still believe and those with abusive spouses. If you're interested, I'd be happy to go into more detail.


You might start by explaining how individual abuse is similar to institutional racism. I don't think they are all that analogous.

Regardless, lets say you're right, that there are those out there that were hurt by this parody. The fact remains that this hurt is a direct result of a failed leadership those same people are supporting. If the hurt they experienced causes them to reconsider their unjustified support of that leadership, how is that a bad thing?

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:43 am 
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Xenophon wrote:
Although I can agree with the sentiments that the church probably won't ever change and that if it does it will be a painful process, I think you're way off with the below remarks:
Fence Sitter wrote:
To be honest I cannot understand why any informed black person would be a member of the LDS church. We have such an odious history of racism and racist leaders. Black members, by their very membership are supporting this institutionalized racism. Just as any native Americans who are members are supporting the racism against their very people pervasive in the Book of Mormon.
Blacks, Native Americans or whomever can join the church, or any org, for a million different reasons. Their motives are their own as individuals and you have to let people sort through those things on their own. By your logic you would essentially ban blacks from participating in any part of American society, particularly the South, lest they be "supporting" institutionalized racism. The church's relationship with race isn't all that much worse than America's as a whole. Yes the LDS were very late to the party and I fully denounce the preisthood ban (not that anyone cares about my position on it) but it isn't like the world is now some magical, racism free wonderland. Minorities having to reconcile their place within a system that has historically (and often currently) placed them at sub-standard membership is not unique to Mormonism.


There is a world of difference between voluntary membership in a religion whose leadership claims to speak for God and being part of a overall society where racism rampant. One can at anytime leave the former, while the latter is unavoidable.

ON Edit.

by the way for what it is worth, I have a hard time understanding why anyone at all, who is informed about the history of the church, fully supports the current leadership of the church..

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:05 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
There is a world of difference between voluntary membership in a religion whose leadership claims to speak for God and being part of a overall society where racism rampant. One can at anytime leave the former, while the latter is unavoidable.
I think you understate how easily people can divorce themselves from a religion that is thoroughly apart of themselves and their life. Particularly if, apart from the racism of old, one is finding value. From personal experience it isn't entirely uncommon to live in a world where one experiences less prejudice within your immediate church family than in other parts of your life. With that framing I don't see how you could possible blame a minority member for not tossing aside the LDS church immediately.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:07 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:
Black people can be members for the same reasons white people are.

Of course they can but unlike white people there are reasons that a black person might feel less inclined to join.
Meadowchik wrote:
Perhaps you're not familiar with situations of trying to help people out of abusive marriages. And by the way, at least one of the husbands I referred to does use the God card to continue abusing. The other one probably does too. I can see tons of parallels between people injured by the church who still believe and those with abusive spouses. If you're interested, I'd be happy to go into more detail.


You might start by explaining how individual abuse is similar to institutional racism. I don't think they are all that analogous.

Regardless, lets say you're right, that there are those out there that were hurt by this parody. The fact remains that this hurt is a direct result of a failed leadership those same people are supporting. If the hurt they experienced causes them to reconsider their unjustified support of that leadership, how is that a bad thing?


Okay, first: An individual member of an abusive institution experiences at minimum a parasocial relationship that is abusive, with likelihood of dyadic abusive relationships within the institution. Relationships are usually based on some kind of mutual benefit. So in a marriage, a person can be benefiting from the relationship and abuse often means it's more likely they are somehow dependent on the relationship. Sure, they have the legal right to leave, just like they can leave a church, but there can be a thousand invisible consequences to them, psychologically, materially. They may be so ill-equipped to leave that they want to go back after living without the spouse. As members we can likewise be dependent on that parasocial relationship with the institution. It mistreats us, yet, but we get something out of it, sometimes we may not know how to get what we need anywhere else, because the relationship has insinuated itself into our mentalities and material lives so thoroughly.

Second, the direct result of the hurt is from the hoax. Assume the hoax never existed. That pain is already there, the hurt of being abused by the institution. Add the hoax, and another trauma has been generated. Have you ever dealt with PTSD? High anxiety? Chronic health issues? Seemingly little things can ruin your day, week, year because your ability to cope with the crap you already deal with has been affected. OF COURSE the chief cause of the overall painful circumstances is the underlying general problem, but do we want to add burdens or lighten them? What is the best course?


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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:18 am 
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Xenophon wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:
There is a world of difference between voluntary membership in a religion whose leadership claims to speak for God and being part of a overall society where racism rampant. One can at anytime leave the former, while the latter is unavoidable.
I think you understate how easily people can divorce themselves from a religion that is thoroughly apart of themselves and their life. Particularly if, apart from the racism of old, one is finding value. From personal experience it isn't entirely uncommon to live in a world where one experiences less prejudice within your immediate church family than in other parts of your life. With that framing I don't see how you could possible blame a minority member for not tossing aside the LDS church immediately.


That is why I qualified my remark by saying "informed". I realize that walking away from a lifelong religion is difficult, but how many of our black members are BIC? Again, I responded to Meadowchik remark by saying that I thought we are only talking about a handful of black members who might of been both fooled and hurt by this satire. And while I do not wish anyone that kind of pain, the pain is the result of what the church is doing and the result of those members, in spite of their race, who support that church. And attention needs to be drawn to that problem. This fake statement accomplished that. The fact that this discussion is happening here and through out social media demonstrates the effectiveness of the hoax.

There is a fake news outlet called The Onion. I am sure you have heard of it. Today's lead article is about a white woman in a restaurant who reaches for her cell phone when a suspicious black man tells her that the soup is minestrone. See here. Are such stories hurtful when taken as real? Sure, but they accomplish a purpose. They draw attention to a bad situation just like this parody did.

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 Post subject: Re: Church apologizes for Racism!
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:28 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
Okay, first: An individual member of an abusive institution experiences at minimum a parasocial relationship that is abusive, with likelihood of dyadic abusive relationships within the institution. Relationships are usually based on some kind of mutual benefit. So in a marriage, a person can be benefiting from the relationship and abuse often means it's more likely they are somehow dependent on the relationship. Sure, they have the legal right to leave, just like they can leave a church, but there can be a thousand invisible consequences to them, psychologically, materially. They may be so ill-equipped to leave that they want to go back after living without the spouse. As members we can likewise be dependent on that parasocial relationship with the institution. It mistreats us, yet, but we get something out of it, sometimes we may not know how to get what we need anywhere else, because the relationship has insinuated itself into our mentalities and material lives so thoroughly.

Second, the direct result of the hurt is from the hoax. Assume the hoax never existed. That pain is already there, the hurt of being abused by the institution. Add the hoax, and another trauma has been generated. Have you ever dealt with PTSD? High anxiety? Chronic health issues? Seemingly little things can ruin your day, week, year because your ability to cope with the crap you already deal with has been affected. OF COURSE the chief cause of the overall painful circumstances is the underlying general problem, but do we want to add burdens or lighten them? What is the best course?


I think individual situations require individual remedies, and that one solution never fits all problems. With almost all illnesses, the best remedy usually is going to involve pain and discomfort on the path to recovery, sometime it is necessary to increase that pain to reach recovery sometimes it isn't. Like I said, each individual is different. But we are not talking about individual dynamics here, but rather group dynamics and applying a solution to group dynamics is going to cause different levels of results to the individuals within that group.

Look we are getting way off track here.
Yes I agree that some individuals were probably hurt by this incident.
No, I don't understand why those same individuals continue to support a leadership that is the cause of the problem

And I think that while some individuals were hurt by it, that the pain it caused is part of the processes working toward a day when the church actually does issue a much needed apology.

Are there better ways to accomplish that goal? Maybe but because this way is not the best does not mean it should not also be employed.

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