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 Post subject: Question about new PH change?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 8:17 am 
Charlatan
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Do any members know whether or not existing elders, who grow and are deemed worthy, will be called to become a HP? Or will the current HP office go instinct? The mud is think on this one from what I can find. The new presidency of the combined quorums will be called "elders presidency."

I understand all HP's are elders, so maybe I am just reading too much into this.

Quote:
Stake presidency, regional LDS leaders, will release both high priest group leaderships and elders quorum presidencies and call new three-man elders presidencies. HERE


Like always the church can't be open, clear, and honest with the folks, so they are left trying to figure things out on their own. It seems they always have to leave wiggle room so when they see how the decision pans out, they can go that direction with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about new PH change?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:39 am 
Charlatan
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Also, in D&C 107 it reads that a elder can't preside, if a HP is present. How will this work with a Elder in the presidency that is over many HPs?

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11 An elder has a right to officiate in his stead when the high priest is not present.

12 The high priest and elder are to administer in spiritual things, agreeable to the covenants and commandments of the church; and they have a right to officiate in all these offices of the church when there are no higher authorities present.


Seems Nelson is over riding a direct revelation of Joseph Smith.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about new PH change?
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:37 am 
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My understanding is that going forward the only way to become a HP is if called into a bishopric, stake presidency, or the high council. Once ordained a HP, you retain that status forever. In my stake all the EQ presidencies have been reorganized, and in literally every single one the EQ president is a HP. And in most cases that I'm seeing, the first counselor is as well. But usually, either first or second counselor, there is a real elder/young guy.

It is as predicted. Whether the goal was to stifle the more vibrant discussions had among the younger group, we can only guess, but for sure that will be a consequence of this change. Elders will leave at a higher rate as things are hijacked by the old men.

Kind of interesting, really. What I observe is that the old men are all really conservative, both in terms of politics and their attitudes/beliefs about the church. The young men/elders are very TBM as far as belief goes, terribly immature and ignorant, but they also tend to be very liberal politically. The younger conservative men, who you'd expect to get along better with the older crowd, they have mostly already left the church. Interpret this how you will, but that's my observation.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about new PH change?
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:28 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
My understanding is that going forward the only way to become a HP is if called into a bishopric, stake presidency, or the high council. Once ordained a HP, you retain that status forever. In my stake all the EQ presidencies have been reorganized, and in literally every single one the EQ president is a HP. And in most cases that I'm seeing, the first counselor is as well. But usually, either first or second counselor, there is a real elder/young guy.

It is as predicted. Whether the goal was to stifle the more vibrant discussions had among the younger group, we can only guess, but for sure that will be a consequence of this change. Elders will leave at a higher rate as things are hijacked by the old men.

Kind of interesting, really. What I observe is that the old men are all really conservative, both in terms of politics and their attitudes/beliefs about the church. The young men/elders are very TBM as far as belief goes, terribly immature and ignorant, but they also tend to be very liberal politically. The younger conservative men, who you'd expect to get along better with the older crowd, they have mostly already left the church. Interpret this how you will, but that's my observation.


I wonder how many wards across the church will move to having an older, parental influence in the leadership as seems to be happening in your stake. It seems the church just doesn't get it if this was by design. The younger generations don't like the parental/authoritarian model that the church loves and also like to question authority more. So having grandpa rule the roost will just push more of the younger away as you allude to. My guess is that the leadership realizes this and wants to consolidate its conservative message, so it has a "revelation" to continue down the same path regardless of whether or not the younger generations leave. It's their conservative way or the highway. The church doesn't ask for apologies or give them for its conduct.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about new PH change?
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:51 am 
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I am really cynical when it comes to what motivates Salt Lake City leadership to do stuff. But this move to consolidate the HP and Elder's quorum isn't, in my view, an effort to place older leadership over younger men, though it certainly may have that effect. I think Salt Lake City did this because it knows it does not have enough active males to fill male only callings in most wards and branches and saw this as the way to free up a dozen or so callings in each ward.

The problem with a lack of active male leadership is only going to get worse, given the high rate at which young males are leaving activity and or the church entirely.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about new PH change?
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:51 am 
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Exiled wrote:
I wonder how many wards across the church will move to having an older, parental influence in the leadership as seems to be happening in your stake. It seems the church just doesn't get it if this was by design. The younger generations don't like the parental/authoritarian model that the church loves and also like to question authority more. So having grandpa rule the roost will just push more of the younger away as you allude to. My guess is that the leadership realizes this and wants to consolidate its conservative message, so it has a "revelation" to continue down the same path regardless of whether or not the younger generations leave. It's their conservative way or the highway. The church doesn't ask for apologies or give them for its conduct.

In my experience most people tune out in church meetings. The larger the meeting group the more tuning out. This gives more people more oportunity to tune out, in my mind. People go because they're supposed to. People participate if they feel they are qualified or need others to hear them. Most just sit until they move to the new class, granted, somewhat trying to get something out of the meeting. I think the unspoken or in some ways spoken rule is always, though, don't disrupt. With that I see most Priesthood meetings turning into repeats of the big gospel doctrine classes, wherein little is said, and few participate.

I'm guessign the Church likes it that way. Less small groups to talk about things. I'm guessing that was at least one consideration made in this change. Plus as Water Dog mentions, the old guys, particularly the more vocal ones, tend to be the traditaionalists who really don't want people disrupting and will do everything they can to put a stop to ideas that don't fit, in their estimations. A level of control gets added in this sense.

I had thougth the biggest impetus for this change was because of dwindling quorums and groups and complaints that some wards don't function because of it. But I wonder if this is a more immediate motive for the change--we need to figure out how better to stamp out dissent.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about new PH change?
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:34 am 
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Stem wrote:
In my experience most people tune out in church meetings. The larger the meeting group the more tuning out. This gives more people more oportunity to tune out, in my mind. People go because they're supposed to. People participate if they feel they are qualified or need others to hear them. Most just sit until they move to the new class, granted, somewhat trying to get something out of the meeting. I think the unspoken or in some ways spoken rule is always, though, don't disrupt. With that I see most Priesthood meetings turning into repeats of the big gospel doctrine classes, wherein little is said, and few participate.

I'm guessign the Church likes it that way. Less small groups to talk about things. I'm guessing that was at least one consideration made in this change. Plus as Water Dog mentions, the old guys, particularly the more vocal ones, tend to be the traditaionalists who really don't want people disrupting and will do everything they can to put a stop to ideas that don't fit, in their estimations. A level of control gets added in this sense.

I had thougth the biggest impetus for this change was because of dwindling quorums and groups and complaints that some wards don't function because of it. But I wonder if this is a more immediate motive for the change--we need to figure out how better to stamp out dissent.

I think that's a great point that message control is easier in a larger group that is led by "proven," older guys the church trusts. Correlation defeats free discussion here. Heaven forbid the church became like this discussion board with relatively little controls.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about new PH change?
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:59 pm 
Charlatan
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Water Dog wrote:
My understanding is that going forward the only way to become a HP is if called into a bishopric, stake presidency, or the high council. Once ordained a HP, you retain that status forever. In my stake all the EQ presidencies have been reorganized, and in literally every single one the EQ president is a HP. And in most cases that I'm seeing, the first counselor is as well. But usually, either first or second counselor, there is a real elder/young guy.

It is as predicted. Whether the goal was to stifle the more vibrant discussions had among the younger group, we can only guess, but for sure that will be a consequence of this change. Elders will leave at a higher rate as things are hijacked by the old men.

Kind of interesting, really. What I observe is that the old men are all really conservative, both in terms of politics and their attitudes/beliefs about the church. The young men/elders are very TBM as far as belief goes, terribly immature and ignorant, but they also tend to be very liberal politically. The younger conservative men, who you'd expect to get along better with the older crowd, they have mostly already left the church. Interpret this how you will, but that's my observation.


In your ward...how are the HPs taking the change...is there is discussion on it?

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 Post subject: Re: Question about new PH change?
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:33 pm 
God
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Bunch of role play nonsense.

Roll the 12 sided dice to determine your spirit of discernment, seership and prophetic powers.

The story begins...

You stand outside the Tabernacle hearing whispers of Gadiaton and his band of robbers from those gathering to hear the words of the Lord as told the Prophet. Three mysterious men wearing ancient Nephite apparel approach...

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 Post subject: Re: Question about new PH change?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:49 am 
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While you would imagine the Church in 2018 to be more base, the recent PH change has raised its acidity.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about new PH change?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:38 am 
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In my ward the Stake Presidency has asked the new combined group to no longer use the High Council room for the meeting. We are instead asked to meet on the stage (and the High Council room sits empty). I am curious to know if anyone else is experiencing this trend or if this is a local preference.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about new PH change?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:34 pm 
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F1rebird wrote:
In my ward the Stake Presidency has asked the new combined group to no longer use the High Council room for the meeting. We are instead asked to meet on the stage (and the High Council room sits empty). I am curious to know if anyone else is experiencing this trend or if this is a local preference.


Our building doesn't have a stage (not a stake center either, so we don't have a High Council Room), so we got to work, quickly built a stage taking out one end of the basketball court so all the fellers can sit together on it. I sewed the curtain, made out of all of our old pairs of gym shorts and such, so we could close it and block our view of the other hoop. In our haste, we didn't make the cabinets underneath the right size, though, so we can't fit our chairs and tables in their on rolling racks. Oops.

Just playing. I haven't' showed up since the announced change, but I imagine our fellers all meet in the chapel.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about new PH change?
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:18 am 
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Much ado about nothing.

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― Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize Winner, 'Thinking, Fast and Slow'


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 Post subject: Re: Question about new PH change?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 2:00 pm 
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Stem wrote:
F1rebird wrote:
In my ward the Stake Presidency has asked the new combined group to no longer use the High Council room for the meeting. We are instead asked to meet on the stage (and the High Council room sits empty). I am curious to know if anyone else is experiencing this trend or if this is a local preference.


Our building doesn't have a stage (not a stake center either, so we don't have a High Council Room), so we got to work, quickly built a stage taking out one end of the basketball court so all the fellers can sit together on it. I sewed the curtain, made out of all of our old pairs of gym shorts and such, so we could close it and block our view of the other hoop. In our haste, we didn't make the cabinets underneath the right size, though, so we can't fit our chairs and tables in their on rolling racks. Oops.

Just playing. I haven't' showed up since the announced change, but I imagine our fellers all meet in the chapel.

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Question about new PH change?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:03 pm 
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I have a question wrote:
Much ado about nothing.


A fair description for anything the Morg does

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