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 Post subject: Joseph Smith jr's involvement with editing of the D&C
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:16 pm 
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From the Joseph Smith papers project:
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-book-1/15#historical-intro

Joseph Smith likely reviewed some of his associates’ editorial changes and made slight alterations in his own hand before the book was taken to Missouri in late 1831 for publication of the Book of Commandments in 1833, although he may have reviewed the selection, editing, and publication process as late as April 1832 when he visited Missouri. He made additional changes, including adding the surnames of some individuals named in the revelations, just before the Doctrine and Covenants was published in 1835.The extent to which Joseph Smith influenced the redactions made by other individuals is unknown.

It appears that steps are being taken by the church to create a red herring for the significant editing in the precursor to the D&C to by blaming Joseph Smith's associates.

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Last edited by Uther on Thu May 03, 2018 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith jr's involvement with editing of the D&C
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:38 pm 
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It's standard procedure to blame those pesky usurping scribes (they are always causing problems), just like apologists do with the book of fabricam.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith jr's involvement with editing of the D&C
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:42 pm 
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Exiled wrote:
It's standard procedure to blame those pesky usurping scribes (they are always causing problems), just like apologists do with the book of fabricam.


Sadly this appears to be an overt approach in line with style 1984 apologetics.

Why doesn't the url show as a link? Typo?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith jr's involvement with editing of the D&C
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 7:14 am 
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Uther wrote:
From the Joseph Smith papers project:
[url]http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-book-1/15#historical-intro
[/url]

Joseph Smith likely reviewed some of his associates’ editorial changes and made slight alterations in his own hand before the book was taken to Missouri in late 1831 for publication of the Book of Commandments in 1833, although he may have reviewed the selection, editing, and publication process as late as April 1832 when he visited Missouri. He made additional changes, including adding the surnames of some individuals named in the revelations, just before the Doctrine and Covenants was published in 1835.The extent to which Joseph Smith influenced the redactions made by other individuals is unknown.

It appears that steps are being taken by the church to create a red herring for the significant editing in the precursor to the D&C to by blaming Joseph Smith's associates.


You would think if changes were made by others after originally written but before Jun 1844, Joseph approved of them, unless he otherwise said so. If they are trying to say the scribes are at fault, they need to support that with contemporary accounts or some sort of evidence.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith jr's involvement with editing of the D&C
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 7:28 am 
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Uther wrote:
It appears that steps are being taken by the church to create a red herring for the significant editing in the precursor to the D&C to by blaming Joseph Smith's associates.


Yet, those redactions and edits were what was canonized.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith jr's involvement with editing of the D&C
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:33 am 
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Stem wrote:
You would think if changes were made by others after originally written but before Jun 1844, Joseph approved of them, unless he otherwise said so. If they are trying to say the scribes are at fault, they need to support that with contemporary accounts or some sort of evidence.


Yes, I think it is a very shallow approach to claim that based on the handwriting of the scribes, they are to be viewed as author/editors of the many significant changes that involve retrospective fact-fitting and doctrinal change.

A more suitable explanation would be to admit that Joseph Smith jr viewed his revelations as dynamic tools to instruct the saints, instead of absolutes from the Lord.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith jr's involvement with editing of the D&C
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:37 am 
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NorthboundZax wrote:
Uther wrote:
It appears that steps are being taken by the church to create a red herring for the significant editing in the precursor to the D&C to by blaming Joseph Smith's associates.


Yet, those redactions and edits were what was canonized.


Yes, and the issue needing apologetics is the cause for the delta between the originals and the later versions.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith jr's involvement with editing of the D&C
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 11:02 am 
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Interesting, Joseph Smith's involvement with all of the REDACTIONS is unknown. But what about all of the ADDITIONS? The major changes to "revelations" after the fact by adding all kinds of things to the existing BOC? It really matters little, who did the changes, it was all approved by Joseph Smith. In fact, W. W. Phelps, who probably did do many of the minor changes to the "revelations" in the Evening and Morning Star, was authorized to do so by Joseph Smith. In a letter to Phelps in Jan. 1833, Joseph Smith said to Phelps,

Quote:
...we wish you to render the Star as interesting as possable by setting forth the rise progress and faith of the church, as well as the doctrine for if you do not render it more interesting than at present it will fall, and the church suffer a great Loss thereby --Joseph Smith Jr


Are we to believe that Smith simply let them run wild with his "revelations" and make all kinds of changes and not review or approve any of it? That is simply ludicrous and even Mormon scholars think so (see below).

They also want to attribute all of the Lectures on Faith to Sidney Rigdon alone. They write,

Quote:
Modern scholars, however, largely agree that Rigdon authored most or all of the lectures.


No, they don't. Here is their footnote to support this assertion:

Quote:
14 See, for example, Reynolds, “The Case for Sidney Rigdon as Author of the Lectures on Faith.”; Reynolds, “Authorship Debate Concerning Lectures on Faith,”; Partridge, Notes on the Authorship of the Lectures on Faith,; and Phipps, “Lectures on Faith: An Authorship Study.”
Reynolds, Noel B. “The Case for Sidney Rigdon as Author of the Lectures on Faith.” Journal of Mormon History 32 (Fall 2005): 1–41.

Reynolds, Noel B. “The Authorship Debate concerning Lectures on Faith: Exhumation and Reburial.” In The Disciple as Witness: Essays on Latter-day Saint History and Doctrine in Honor of Richard Lloyd Anderson, edited by Stephen D. Ricks, Donald W. Parry, and Andrew H. Hedges, 355–382. Provo, Utah: Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 2000.

Partridge, Elinore H. Characteristics of Joseph Smith’s Style and Notes on the Authorship of the Lectures on Faith. Task Papers in LDS History 14. Salt Lake City: History Division, Historical Department, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1976.

Phipps, Alan J. “The Lectures on Faith: An Authorship Study.” Master’s thesis, Brigham Young University, 1977.


Here is Elinore Partridge's conclusion:

Quote:
My analysis of the Lectures on faith [sic] leads me to three somewhat tentative conclusions: First, although Joseph Smith did not write the lectures as they appear in the 1835 version, his influence can be seen in images, examples, scriptural references, and phrasing. Second, Sidney Rigdon may well have prepared them for publication; however, the style throughout is not consistently his. Third, the lectures in their published version represent a compilation or collaboration rather than the work of a single person. ("Characteristics of Joseph Smith's Style and Notes on the Authorship of the Lectures on Faith." Task Papers in LDS History series. Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1976 (Dec), no. 14, p.28)


Does this sound as if she is claiming that Sidney Ridgon wrote all of the Lectures? And my god, they want to refer to this apologist tripe by Noel Reynolds? His reason to discount Joseph writing the 5th Lecture is a word study attributing it to Rigdon, and this statement:

Quote:
But in a later period of theological turmoil in Nauvoo, Joseph Smith publicly affirmed: “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.”44 Rather than trying to reconcile his revelations and this 1844 statement with the lectures, why should we not read it as Joseph’s denial that he was the author of Lecture 5? https://publications.mi.BYU.edu/fullscr ... 2&index=15


Yet, there is this Mormon scholar who disagrees (and there are others):

Quote:
Larry E. Dahl is a professor emeritus of Church history and doctrine of Brigham Young University. He has served as director of the Doctrine and Covenants area in the Religious Studies Center at BYU and as a member of the Church Adult Correlation Review Committee.


He writes,

Quote:
Conclusions about Authorship. What then can we conclude about authorship of the Lectures on Faith? It is clear that several of the brethren participated in writing them. It is also clear that Joseph Smith and perhaps others prepared them for publication after they were written. Undoubtedly, the Lectures were, in the words of President John Taylor, “published with the sanction and approval of the Prophet Joseph Smith” (Woodford 1:87). It would therefore seem appropriate to attribute the ideas, principles, and doctrines in the Lectures on Faith to the Prophet Joseph. https://rsc.BYU.edu/archived/lectures-f ... ures-faith


And this,

Quote:
At the end of October 1834, Joseph’s history states, “It being the last of the month, and the Elders beginning to come in, it was necessary to make preparations for the school for the Elders, wherein they might be more perfectly instructed in the great things of God, during the coming winter . . . . No month ever found me more busily engaged than November” (HC 2: 169–70). It is possible, even probable, that some of the Prophet’s busyness during that month pertained to the writing of the Lectures on Faith. Two months later, in January 1835, we find this entry—”During the month of January, I was engaged in the school of the Elders, and in preparing the lectures on theology for publication in the book of Doctrine and Covenants, which the committee appointed last September were now compiling” (HC 2: 180). These two entries clearly establish Joseph Smith’s close ties to preparing for the School of the Elders and to the content of the Lectures on Faith.


This about Phipps,

Quote:
Authorship Studies. One of the authorship studies of the Lectures on Faith was done by Alan J. Phipps as a master’s thesis in 1977. He compared the frequency of use of certain “function words” in the Lectures with the use of the same words in the writings of several persons who may have had a hand in writing the Lectures, i.e., Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, William W. Phelps, and Parley P. Pratt. He concludes:

The study showed that Sidney Rigdon’s use of function words corresponded very closely with that in Lectures One and Seven, and fairly well with Two, Three, Four, and Six, Joseph Smith’s use of function words matched closely those in Lecture Five, with some evidence of his having co-authored or edited Two, Three, Four, and Six. . . . The data and tests appear, therefore, to assign the authorship of the Lectures on Faith mainly to Sidney Rigdon, with Lecture Five and perhaps some parts of the other lectures, except One and Seven, to Joseph Smith (66–67).

Using the same data as Phipps, but applying a somewhat different word-print analysis, Wayne A. Larsen and Alvin C. Rencher report: “Our conclusions largely support his results, with some differences . . .” (183–84). Both studies conclude that Sidney Rigdon was heavily involved, and that Joseph Smith was probably the author of Lecture 2. The differences suggest that Joseph Smith had less to do with Lectures 3, 4, and 6 than the Phipps study showed, and that William W. Phelps and/or Parley P. Pratt could have had at least some editorial influence on Lecture 5. [2] In fairness it should be recognized that Larsen’s and Rencher’s work with the Lectures on Faith was a peripheral, almost incidental glance, in a study of Book of Mormon authorship. If they were to focus primarily on the Lectures, perhaps they would adjust both the selection of data and perform additional tests and comparisons.


I'm pretty much a defender of the Joseph Smith Papers. I think the editors in most cases get things right. But with this, I'm utterly disgusted with their utter disingenuousness. It is obvious that this is the conclusion that they want their readers to come to. But again, Dahl says it best and shows that all this posturing by the JSP on this is pointless:

Quote:
The question as to who actually wrote the Lectures then, may be of little consequence.


Why? Because Smith was heavily involved in their production and publication and trusted those like W. W. Phelps so much that he actually gave him the authority to proclaim church doctrine in the Star.

Phipps study is here: https://scholarsarchive.BYU.edu/etd/5045/

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith jr's involvement with editing of the D&C
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 11:38 am 
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Whether Joseph wrote the LoF or not, in the preface to the LoF, Joseph signs his name to this:

Quote:
We do not present this little volume with any other expectation than that we are to be called to answer to every principle advanced, in that day when the secrets of all hearts will be revealed, and the reward of every man's labor be given him.


http://lecturesonfaith.com/preface.html


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith jr's involvement with editing of the D&C
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 8:56 am 
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grindael wrote:
Interesting, Joseph Smith's involvement with all of the REDACTIONS is unknown. But what about all of the ADDITIONS? The major changes to "revelations" after the fact by adding all kinds of things to the existing BOC? It really matters little, who did the changes, it was all approved by Joseph Smith. In fact, W. W. Phelps, who probably did do many of the minor changes to the "revelations" in the Evening and Morning Star, was authorized to do so by Joseph Smith. In a letter to Phelps in Jan. 1833, Joseph Smith said to Phelps,

Quote:
...we wish you to render the Star as interesting as possable by setting forth the rise progress and faith of the church, as well as the doctrine for if you do not render it more interesting than at present it will fall, and the church suffer a great Loss thereby --Joseph Smith Jr


Are we to believe that Smith simply let them run wild with his "revelations" and make all kinds of changes and not review or approve any of it? That is simply ludicrous and even Mormon scholars think so (see below).

They also want to attribute all of the Lectures on Faith to Sidney Rigdon alone. They write,

Quote:
Modern scholars, however, largely agree that Rigdon authored most or all of the lectures.


No, they don't. Here is their footnote to support this assertion:

Quote:
14 See, for example, Reynolds, “The Case for Sidney Rigdon as Author of the Lectures on Faith.”; Reynolds, “Authorship Debate Concerning Lectures on Faith,”; Partridge, Notes on the Authorship of the Lectures on Faith,; and Phipps, “Lectures on Faith: An Authorship Study.”
Reynolds, Noel B. “The Case for Sidney Rigdon as Author of the Lectures on Faith.” Journal of Mormon History 32 (Fall 2005): 1–41.

Reynolds, Noel B. “The Authorship Debate concerning Lectures on Faith: Exhumation and Reburial.” In The Disciple as Witness: Essays on Latter-day Saint History and Doctrine in Honor of Richard Lloyd Anderson, edited by Stephen D. Ricks, Donald W. Parry, and Andrew H. Hedges, 355–382. Provo, Utah: Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 2000.

Partridge, Elinore H. Characteristics of Joseph Smith’s Style and Notes on the Authorship of the Lectures on Faith. Task Papers in LDS History 14. Salt Lake City: History Division, Historical Department, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1976.

Phipps, Alan J. “The Lectures on Faith: An Authorship Study.” Master’s thesis, Brigham Young University, 1977.


Here is Elinore Partridge's conclusion:

Quote:
My analysis of the Lectures on faith [sic] leads me to three somewhat tentative conclusions: First, although Joseph Smith did not write the lectures as they appear in the 1835 version, his influence can be seen in images, examples, scriptural references, and phrasing. Second, Sidney Rigdon may well have prepared them for publication; however, the style throughout is not consistently his. Third, the lectures in their published version represent a compilation or collaboration rather than the work of a single person. ("Characteristics of Joseph Smith's Style and Notes on the Authorship of the Lectures on Faith." Task Papers in LDS History series. Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1976 (Dec), no. 14, p.28)


Does this sound as if she is claiming that Sidney Ridgon wrote all of the Lectures? And my god, they want to refer to this apologist tripe by Noel Reynolds? His reason to discount Joseph writing the 5th Lecture is a word study attributing it to Rigdon, and this statement:

Quote:
But in a later period of theological turmoil in Nauvoo, Joseph Smith publicly affirmed: “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.”44 Rather than trying to reconcile his revelations and this 1844 statement with the lectures, why should we not read it as Joseph’s denial that he was the author of Lecture 5? https://publications.mi.BYU.edu/fullscr ... 2&index=15


Yet, there is this Mormon scholar who disagrees (and there are others):

Quote:
Larry E. Dahl is a professor emeritus of Church history and doctrine of Brigham Young University. He has served as director of the Doctrine and Covenants area in the Religious Studies Center at BYU and as a member of the Church Adult Correlation Review Committee.


He writes,

Quote:
Conclusions about Authorship. What then can we conclude about authorship of the Lectures on Faith? It is clear that several of the brethren participated in writing them. It is also clear that Joseph Smith and perhaps others prepared them for publication after they were written. Undoubtedly, the Lectures were, in the words of President John Taylor, “published with the sanction and approval of the Prophet Joseph Smith” (Woodford 1:87). It would therefore seem appropriate to attribute the ideas, principles, and doctrines in the Lectures on Faith to the Prophet Joseph. https://rsc.BYU.edu/archived/lectures-f ... ures-faith


And this,

Quote:
At the end of October 1834, Joseph’s history states, “It being the last of the month, and the Elders beginning to come in, it was necessary to make preparations for the school for the Elders, wherein they might be more perfectly instructed in the great things of God, during the coming winter . . . . No month ever found me more busily engaged than November” (HC 2: 169–70). It is possible, even probable, that some of the Prophet’s busyness during that month pertained to the writing of the Lectures on Faith. Two months later, in January 1835, we find this entry—”During the month of January, I was engaged in the school of the Elders, and in preparing the lectures on theology for publication in the book of Doctrine and Covenants, which the committee appointed last September were now compiling” (HC 2: 180). These two entries clearly establish Joseph Smith’s close ties to preparing for the School of the Elders and to the content of the Lectures on Faith.


This about Phipps,

Quote:
Authorship Studies. One of the authorship studies of the Lectures on Faith was done by Alan J. Phipps as a master’s thesis in 1977. He compared the frequency of use of certain “function words” in the Lectures with the use of the same words in the writings of several persons who may have had a hand in writing the Lectures, i.e., Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, William W. Phelps, and Parley P. Pratt. He concludes:

The study showed that Sidney Rigdon’s use of function words corresponded very closely with that in Lectures One and Seven, and fairly well with Two, Three, Four, and Six, Joseph Smith’s use of function words matched closely those in Lecture Five, with some evidence of his having co-authored or edited Two, Three, Four, and Six. . . . The data and tests appear, therefore, to assign the authorship of the Lectures on Faith mainly to Sidney Rigdon, with Lecture Five and perhaps some parts of the other lectures, except One and Seven, to Joseph Smith (66–67).

Using the same data as Phipps, but applying a somewhat different word-print analysis, Wayne A. Larsen and Alvin C. Rencher report: “Our conclusions largely support his results, with some differences . . .” (183–84). Both studies conclude that Sidney Rigdon was heavily involved, and that Joseph Smith was probably the author of Lecture 2. The differences suggest that Joseph Smith had less to do with Lectures 3, 4, and 6 than the Phipps study showed, and that William W. Phelps and/or Parley P. Pratt could have had at least some editorial influence on Lecture 5. [2] In fairness it should be recognized that Larsen’s and Rencher’s work with the Lectures on Faith was a peripheral, almost incidental glance, in a study of Book of Mormon authorship. If they were to focus primarily on the Lectures, perhaps they would adjust both the selection of data and perform additional tests and comparisons.


I'm pretty much a defender of the Joseph Smith Papers. I think the editors in most cases get things right. But with this, I'm utterly disgusted with their utter disingenuousness. It is obvious that this is the conclusion that they want their readers to come to. But again, Dahl says it best and shows that all this posturing by the JSP on this is pointless:

Quote:
The question as to who actually wrote the Lectures then, may be of little consequence.


Why? Because Smith was heavily involved in their production and publication and trusted those like W. W. Phelps so much that he actually gave him the authority to proclaim church doctrine in the Star.

Phipps study is here: https://scholarsarchive.BYU.edu/etd/5045/


Interesting perspectives Grindael.
The apologists have long tried to distance JSjr from the LOF.

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About Joseph Smith.. How do you think his persona was influenced by being the storyteller since childhood? Mastering the art of going pale, changing his voice, and mesmerizing his audience.. How do you think he was influenced by keeping secrets and lying for his wife and the church members for decades?


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