It is currently Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:34 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 73 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:05 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:37 pm
Posts: 1328
Wow, smac made up a whopper and is getting questioned (he may have simply stopped responding, but we will see).

Exiled did the right thing and questioned smac's abuse story (which quite honestly is an obviously made up story, imo).

Exiled got banned from the thread (Calm is smac's biggest supporter and comes immediately to his defense if anyone even slightly questions him and it's very annoying).

But now others are asking him questions and his story is falling apart before his eyes. He's even said now that he wished he hadn't shared it (it had no place on that thread other than to try to make Mckenna Denson look bad who smac has trashed every chance he can).

And, how the heck can he spend all day on there, spending what must be hours to write those God awful long, boring, disjointed posts if he's actually a practicing attorney? Is the church one of his clients and are they paying him to do this?

Here's the post where Exiled quotes his story and follow from there:
http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/704 ... 1209813859


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:31 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:49 am
Posts: 8165
Location: Somewhere between bemused and curious.
I am always surprised at the amount of posts he makes in threads that have no positive outcome for the church. He has posted numerous times in the abuse threads. I suspect he is far and above the most frequent poster in those threads. Regardless of whether or not he is making valid points in those threads, he is single handedly keeping threads at the top of the board and in the most viewed threads. No matter how the McKenna/Bishop issue plays out, I am sure what the church itself wants is for the public discussion of it, to die down. As a self appointed counselor of the LDS church he should know better than to keep his client on the stand.

_________________
"The lives we lead now are not dress rehearsals, they are the only performance we have. Therefore what matters is what we have here, the people we know and and love and the good we can do for the world"
Sean Carroll


Last edited by Fence Sitter on Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:42 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:37 pm
Posts: 1328
Fence Sitter wrote:
I am always surprised at the amount of posts he makes in threads that have no positive outcome for the church. He has posted numerous times in the abuse threads. I suspect he is far and above the most frequent poster in those threads. Regardless of whether or not he is making valid points in those threads, he is single handedly keeping threads at the top of the board and in the most viewed threads. No matter how they McKenna/Bishop issue plays out, I am sure what the church itself wants is for the public discussion of it, to die down. As a self appointed counselor of the LDS church he should know better than to keep his client on the stand.

I agree. I see him as one of the worst things that has happened to that discussion board (and that's saying a lot :lol: ).

I doubt that anyone really reads his VERY LONG posts (his style of posting is horrible) and he's really not that bright (just keeps repeating the same garbage over and over). He's bad for that forum and is one of the worst, least effective apologists I've ever seen. He does more harm than good over there. So, I usually skip his posts entirely when I do read anything on that board.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:08 am 
God

Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 8:38 pm
Posts: 1219
Madison54 wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:
I am always surprised at the amount of posts he makes in threads that have no positive outcome for the church. He has posted numerous times in the abuse threads. I suspect he is far and above the most frequent poster in those threads. Regardless of whether or not he is making valid points in those threads, he is single handedly keeping threads at the top of the board and in the most viewed threads. No matter how they McKenna/Bishop issue plays out, I am sure what the church itself wants is for the public discussion of it, to die down. As a self appointed counselor of the LDS church he should know better than to keep his client on the stand.

I agree. I see him as one of the worst things that has happened to that discussion board (and that's saying a lot :lol: ).

I doubt that anyone really reads his VERY LONG posts (his style of posting is horrible) and he's really not that bright (just keeps repeating the same garbage over and over). He's bad for that forum and is one of the worst, least effective apologists I've ever seen. He does more harm than good over there. So, I usually skip his posts entirely when I do read anything on that board.
As stated before, I can't get through all of his posts..but when I login..I have noticed that sometimes there is a post on there that is time at 3 in the morning...!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:34 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:49 am
Posts: 8165
Location: Somewhere between bemused and curious.
Madison54 wrote:
I agree. I see him as one of the worst things that has happened to that discussion board (and that's saying a lot :lol: ).

I doubt that anyone really reads his VERY LONG posts (his style of posting is horrible) and he's really not that bright (just keeps repeating the same garbage over and over). He's bad for that forum and is one of the worst, least effective apologists I've ever seen. He does more harm than good over there. So, I usually skip his posts entirely when I do read anything on that board.


The problem with his posting style is his propensity to take his interlocutor's paragraph and break it into individual sentences, responding to each sentence as if they are isolated thoughts, rather than a cohesive whole. It pretty much destroys the original meaning of the other person's remark. And not destroys as in a rebuttal but he ends up responding to something the other person simply is not saying. An exchange with him might go something like this.

Legal disclaimer:
The following is a completely fictional made up account, any appearance or resemblance to people or other remarks in real life is completely unintended.


SMAC,

Hey I thought it might be a good idea if you and I were to meet in person. Maybe we could have lunch together sometime, next time I am your area. My treat. I think we would probably find that we have much more in common with each other than differences.


To which he might respond.

Fencesitter wrote:
SMAC,

You know my friends call me SMAC, right? Are you implying you're my friend? CFR that you are my friend.

Fencesitter wrote:
Hey I thought it might be a good idea if you and I were to meet in person.

Why do you assume that you know what a good idea is and that I will agree with you? People have a right to their individual opinions. You are just like the people in the movie industry.

The truth is, the movie industry is just like any other industry, filled with a lot of people, some good and some bad.

Have I occasionally been lied to? Sure. Treated poorly? Of course. But I’ve had similar experiences at my other jobs, at school, and yes, even at church.

It’s true the movie and TV business has its share of Harvey Weinsteins. But thankfully the industry is finally leading the way in outing and condemning these sexual harassers and the horrible things they’ve done. And I hope that this sea change will spread to every other industry. Because this sort of behavior, sadly, is everywhere. Again, even at church.

I honestly have not seen Hollywood to be anti-religion. Both Despicable Me and Despicable Me 3 have scenes of the girls praying, and we never heard a single objection to that from anybody. My experience is that the reason there’s not a lot of depiction of religion in movies and TV shows is that everyone is terrified of getting it wrong and offending/angering religious people.

So it’s safer just not to go there. But I’m glad that some of my favorite movies and TV shows do—Jane the Virgin and Lady Bird are recent examples of great entertainment that includes religion as part of their characters’ lives.

So when you tell me you think something is a good idea, are you telling me the truth or lying to me?


Fencesitter wrote:
Maybe we could have lunch together sometime, next time I am in your area.

Not everyone eats lunch, again you are assuming facts not in evidence and how do you know what area I am in? Are you following me around? What excuses this disgusting and reprehensible public bragging about knowing the where I am? I did not ask to be publicly identified. It was you who has put my name out there, and now bragging to have it, How much greater is the risk of my identity getting "leaked" thanks to you?

Fencesitter wrote:
My treat.

Under no circumstances would having dinner with you be considered a treat. I have some reservations and some skepticism about lunch with you. And I don't at all care for your lies. You should consider what D&C says.

D&C 46 wrote:
8 Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived seek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given;
9 For verily I say unto you, they are given for the benefit of those who love me and keep all my commandments, and him that seeketh so to do; that all may be benefited that seek or that ask of me, that ask and not for a sign that they may consume it upon their lusts.
10 And again, verily I say unto you, I would that ye should always remember, and always retain in your minds what those gifts are, that are given unto the church.
11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.
12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.
13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.
15 And again, to some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know the differences of administration, as it will be pleasing unto the same Lord, according as the Lord will, suiting his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men.
16 And again, it is given by the Holy Ghost to some to know the diversities of operations, whether they be of God, that the manifestations of the Spirit may be given to every man to profit withal.
17 And again, verily I say unto you, to some is given, by the Spirit of God, the word of wisdom.
18 To another is given the word of knowledge, that all may be taught to be wise and to have knowledge.
19 And again, to some it is given to have faith to be healed;
20 And to others it is given to have faith to heal.
21 And again, to some is given the working of miracles;
22 And to others it is given to prophesy;
23 And to others the discerning of spirits.
24 And again, it is given to some to speak with tongues;
25 And to another is given the interpretation of tongues.
26 And all these gifts come from God, for the benefit of the children of God.


Fencesitter wrote:
I think we would probably find that we have much more in common with each other than differences.


With respect, I disagree. The best decisions I have made in my life have been guided by the Spirit. Unlike you, I find the Spirit to be profoundly reliable and trustworthy.

_________________
"The lives we lead now are not dress rehearsals, they are the only performance we have. Therefore what matters is what we have here, the people we know and and love and the good we can do for the world"
Sean Carroll


Last edited by Fence Sitter on Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:50 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:37 pm
Posts: 1328
Fence Sitter wrote:
Legal disclaimer:
The following is a completely fictional made up account, any appearance or resemblance to people or other remarks in real life is completely unintended.


Oh wow! Hilarious :lol: :lol: :lol:

You nailed it. That's exactly what he does and why so few can make it through his posts! My head is spinning and hurting before I even read a fraction of one of his responses.

You did a perfect imitation. I'm still laughing :lol:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:52 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am
Posts: 16799
Oh my god. Fence Sitter. How? I'm having flashbacks of reading that board. Spot. On.

- Doc


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:15 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 1683
Smac97 is a real piece of work. I knew if I came out right away and said his story was too convienent to be true, I would get banned. Non-believing, in league with satan, mormondiscussions posters get banned for calling out nonsense over there. Whereas, Smac97 can spout off whatever nonsense he wants and the person or persons acting as calm come to the rescue. Once I said in ellipses that it probably wasn't even real, I was instantly banned. It never ceases to amaze how the true church can't take a little pushback.

I think if consig or someone else has the chance, an investigation needs to be made into the church connection and unFAIR and the MADD board. I suspect sometimes talking points are given to posters there and someone like Smac97 must be getting a little tithing gravy or his clients are suffering.

_________________
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:39 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:37 pm
Posts: 1328
Wow. Calm and bluebell are out of control and being ridiculous on that thread now. Totally making fools of themselves!!!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:54 pm 
Apostle

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:21 pm
Posts: 799
I stopped following. But I did explain on the mckennas daughter thread how I was tossed from that thread. Funny that as soon as I sent a message to mods not only did bluebell and calm suddenly respond but as they asked me to reissue the cfr I was quickly banned. Bluebell started in by saying ng “oh I didn’t know you responded” but she had already responded to another of my posts and was giving reps to smac and others as they quoted my quotations of bluebell. I’m seeing a distinct lack of any sort of integrity. But it’s not stopping me. I’m still fascinated by how far they’ll take things.

Oh and one more note since I can’t post over there. The cfr stuff was hilarious to me. All this big talk of banning for not responding to cfrs. There’s no mention of if you didn’t see it. Calm claims tons of people have been banned for not responding to cfrs. Cool. How does she know not a one of them also did not see it? I doubt anyone’s been banned. They might see the mod chime in with a warning. But that mod most likely happens to be calm or Juilann.

Sad I missed most of exiles stuff with smac though. I’ll have to go back and not log in to see what’s up.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:23 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 1683
Too bad those idiots over there won't let me back on the thread to defend the points I brought up. My points were that first of all, it is complete nonsense to say a victim who remains silent is somehow brave in doing so. I was a witness to what a pedophile was doing in my stake way back when in the 1970's. I was 13 at the time. I wasn't a direct victim but I was counseled by the stake president to say nothing and let the church handle the matter. I wish I had been older and more sure of myself back then and maybe I would have said something. I definitely wasn't brave in staying silent. I feel that maybe I would be somewhat responsible if the pedo acted out again. Obviously, this is a difficult matter to sort out but just the same, I feel like not saying anything is so far from noble and great and laudable that I just had to say something when Smack97 brought out his hypothetical "silence is golden if the church is involved" nonsense and no one is allowed to question the wise action taken by the victim to say nothing (according to counselor Smack97). Second, society should do everything in its power to foster an environment where speaking out is encouraged. It is difficult to be strong in these situations and Ms. Denson should be the one with a medal and not Smack97's fantasy person. Only by speaking out can society rid itself as much as possible from these sexual predators. We will probably always have these criminals among us but staying silent is not the answer. It is part of the problem. Of course it is understandable if someone doesn't want to speak out and confront a sexual deviant. I get it. It's hard to be a Mckenna Denson and society needs more of them.

Now, should silent victims be punished for not speaking out? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! THEY SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED TO SPEAK OUT AND PROTECTED WHEN THEY DO. They shouldn't be bullied into speaking as Calm and Smack97 conveniently (strawman like) claimed I said or supported. If there is a way to keep their testimony confidential, that should happen. The 6th amendment forces victims to confront their accusers and victims should be given every possible benefit within the law so that they do confront these sicko's and confront them often.

_________________
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:52 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:37 pm
Posts: 1328
Exiled wrote:
Too bad those idiots over there won't let me back on the thread to defend the points I brought up.

Yes, it is too bad they banned you from that thread. You were speaking up and saying so many things that needed to be said. Others are questioning smac now and (at least when he was on today), he’s not responding. Calm and bluebell went crazy on a couple posters and twisted every thing they said. Pretty unbelievable because they were spot on with their comments just as you were. Oh well. I think they look foolish.

Thanks for expressing your feelings here where at least you’re free to do so.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:01 pm 
God

Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 8:38 pm
Posts: 1219
Madison54 wrote:
Exiled wrote:
Too bad those idiots over there won't let me back on the thread to defend the points I brought up.

Yes, it is too bad they banned you from that thread. You were speaking up and saying so many things that needed to be said. Others are questioning smac now and (at least when he was on today), he’s not responding. Calm and bluebell went crazy on a couple posters and twisted every thing they said. Pretty unbelievable because they were spot on with their comments just as you were. Oh well. I think they look foolish.

Thanks for expressing your feelings here where at least you’re free to do so.
I agree...Exiled is one of the posters who is upfront, knowledgeable and knows how to put things that matter across first and foremost. He is one of the few that smacs Smac. I miss ya guy!! In my perception, I feel that sometimes Calm and Bluebell give JulieM an unnecessary hard time on specifics when they already know what she means.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:13 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:37 pm
Posts: 1328
candygal wrote:
I agree...Exiled is one of the posters who is upfront, knowledgeable and knows how to put things that matter across first and foremost. He is one of the few that smacs Smac. I miss ya guy!! In my perception, I feel that sometimes Calm and Bluebell give JulieM an unnecessary hard time on specifics when they already know what she means.

Yes, she seems sweet, honest and upfront. They tried to twist everything she wrote and pick it apart and change the connotation for what she was obviously meaning to say. I honestly think they tag team on purpose against good posters as just a way to distract from readers getting the actual message that someone is clearly posting. I think smac uses this tactic too. He tries to get posters off topic and distracted from a subject that is obviously damaging to the church and there's no other defense than for him to attempt to get them off the actual subject. They do seem to be quite the tight threesome these days!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:24 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am
Posts: 16799
It's the oddest thing to observe active LDS place their church over Jesus Christ Himself.

- Doc


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 10945
Location: Multiverse
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
It's the oddest thing to observe active LDS place their church over Jesus Christ Himself.

- Doc


Since when? :lol:

_________________
You have made this ludicrous assertion about Israelite religion in the New World. Produce one shred of non-faith based evidence to prove it. --Philip Jenkins


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:33 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:42 pm
Posts: 19349
Location: Koloburbia
What has changed with Bluebell? She was very cordial in the past and did not make challenges based on cherry picking elements of a case in order to weave a false (apologetic) narrative.

As for MD&D support for Smac, I assume several people are tagged on that board as being the Devil's Advocates. Just wish Smac did not take that role so literally.

Maybe on an issue where the Church is so obviously in the wrong, apologists have to try that much harder. It's like with the old FARMs crew, if you are going to fight a guerrilla war you need to crawl through the mud.

_________________
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:54 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:37 pm
Posts: 1328
moksha wrote:
What has changed with Bluebell? She was very cordial in the past and did not make challenges based on cherry picking elements of a case in order to weave a false (apologetic) narrative.

Yes, I was going to mention that in my last post. bluebell used to be a much more honest poster over there, but she has turned into a clone of Calm's and is just a staunch a defender of smac as Calm. What they did at the end of that thread to Juliem was shameful and it just made them look so petty and foolish.

And notice that smac just stepped back and let them do it. He was on there posting several times yesterday and just stayed off that thread and answered none of the questions posed to him about his false story (because it was unraveling and not making any sense when really analyzed). He was all over that thread before that though and couldn't stay away.

Also what bluebell did to stem on another thread was so hypocritical. Her, Calm and smac were horrible to a new poster, issuing CFR's right and left and threatening to report him to the mods and telling him he'd be banned if he didn't answer the CFR's. Then stem issues one to bluebell and she blows it off, never answers it and then they ban him. It's so obvious who the mods are over there!!!


Last edited by Madison54 on Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:00 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:02 am
Posts: 16799
Their CFR tactic is a pretty interesting move. It's used to distract from points and move the discussion into petty asides that then can be used as justification to ban or shut the conversation down.

I mean, I'm not surprised, but I don't know how honest posters can tolerate posting in an environment that's totally stacked against open dialogue and is based in favoritism.

- Doc


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:31 am 
CTR B

Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:39 pm
Posts: 146
Location: Logan, UT
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
I mean, I'm not surprised, but I don't know how honest posters can tolerate posting in an environment that's totally stacked against open dialogue and is based in favoritism.

Joseph Campbell wrote:
When an honest man realizes that he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken or cease being honest.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Smac97 Gets Called Out On His Fabricated Tale On MD&D
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:17 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:53 pm
Posts: 3360
I just read the thread and it's a great example of the hypocrisy, defensiveness, insecurity and tribalism that is typically on display at MD&D.

I can't believe they banned Stem. His comments were calm, professional and insightful.

MD&D can't be good for the Church. It's a microcosm of why the Church is struggling on so many different fronts right now.

_________________
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2012


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 73 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Doctor CamNC4Me, Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 47 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group