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 Post subject: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:54 pm 
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Researching General Conference for RFM podcast.

Came upon Elder Dale G. Renlund's talk at the end of Saturday Afternoon session. He opens by mentioning a public confrontation between Orson Pratt and Parley Pratt in 1846, which they eventually healed after years of acrimony.

Here are Elder Renlund's words:

Code:
Family relationships can be some of the most rewarding yet challenging experiences we encounter. Many of us have faced a fracture of some sort within our families. Such a fracture developed between two heroes of the Restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ in these latter days. Parley and Orson Pratt were brothers, early converts, and ordained Apostles. Each faced a trial of faith but came through with an unshakable testimony. Both sacrificed and contributed greatly for the cause of truth.
 
During the Nauvoo era, their relationship became strained, culminating in a heated, public confrontation in 1846. A deep and prolonged rift developed.


My first thought was to wonder what on earth he was talking about.

I had never heard this story before.

My second thought was what on earth could have been the cause of this rift between the Pratt brothers.

A little research shed some light.

Quote:
“In January 1846, Parley and Orson Pratt publicly argued in the newly completed Nauvoo temple over accusations Parley had made against Orson’s wife, Sarah. Orson and Sarah had quarreled with church officials ever since Joseph Smith reportedly approached Sarah in 1842, while Orson was in England, and a proposal of plural marriage. Shortly before Parley’s and Orson’s dispute, Sarah had informed Mary Ann of Belinda’s and Parley’s relationship. Mary Ann confronted Belinda and, after learning the truth, left Parley. They formally divorced seven years later.

“In the temple Parley accused Sarah of ‘ruining and breaking up his family,’ as well as of being an apostate. Parley’s and Orson’s argument became so intense that Orson voted (?) out of the temple. The next day Orson wrote to Brigham Young, president of the Twelve, defending his attack on Parley. He denied responsibility for Mary Ann’s knowledge of Parley’s polygamous marriages and told Young he was willing to repent of anything that would keep him out of good standing. But, he declared, Parley was now his ‘avowed enemy.’ The two brothers did not reconcile unto seven years later in 1853.” The Essentials of Parley P. Pratt, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1990, xii.

http://jared.pratt-family.org/parley_hi ... uvoo4.html


While I appreciate learning this new story from church history, I am left to wonder why on earth Elder Renlund felt the need to "go there."

It would seem he knows the backdrop of this story, or why would he have mentioned it in the first place?

And if he knew the backdrop, why is he taking the chance that members will research it and find out for themselves what the rift was about?

Thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:41 pm 
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I haven't heard a thing about it from chapel Mormons I know. Any facts you present that aren't faith promoting are viciously attacked as diabolical in my family. I imagine it's that way for most. Many chapel Mormons don't even know their own scriptures outside of what an institute teacher might comment about them.

Anything else is put on the shelf.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:43 pm 
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I think it's very similar to Rasband's use of John Taylor's revelations mandating polygamy for priesthood leaders that were given around the time he was receiving revelations saying polygamy would not be revoked in the Church.

They obviously understand the context of the passages they are quoting, so you'd expect them to know why it's not the best idea, but they do it anyway. Maybe part of it is just naïvété and because they start from the position of the Church being true they are incapable of seeing how problematic the anecdotes from Church history are. The saying goes "A liar ought to have a good memory", but when you're dealing with almost 200 years worth of lies and selective memory you can see why they end up saying some of this ridiculous nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:56 pm 
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So Parley was so angry that his wife found out about the second wife that the brothers were enemies. A disgusting arrangement.

Seems like the talk was about reconciliation. I wonder how that worked out for Mary Ann? Did she stay in the church? Perhaps she found reconciliation in leaving it.


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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:59 am 
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It would be cool if Renlund subversively jiggled a worm on a hook in order to inspire a deep dive into church history, but his mention can be otherwise explained. First, he may be coming from a place of knowing the history and assuming it is largely known by church members, and/or if it isn't known, that through the mention, he can serve as example of knowing the history and still believing.


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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:02 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
It would be cool if Renlund subversively jiggled a worm on a hook in order to inspire a deep dive into church history, but his mention can be otherwise explained. First, he may be coming from a place of knowing the history and assuming it is largely known by church members, and/or if it isn't known, that through the mention, he can serve as example of knowing the history and still believing.


This seems like a plausible explanation. I am sure church leaders secretly salavated when they heard that Trump comment where he said that he could kill someone and his ardent supporters wouldn't bat an eye. Perhaps this talk was given with an eye of innoculation, in a continued effort to get members to simply shrug off troubling history and shrug off family members who bring up troubling information.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:55 am 
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Goldenbrass wrote:
I think it's very similar to Rasband's use of John Taylor's revelations mandating polygamy for priesthood leaders that were given around the time he was receiving revelations saying polygamy would not be revoked in the Church.

They obviously understand the context of the passages they are quoting, so you'd expect them to know why it's not the best idea, but they do it anyway. Maybe part of it is just naïveté and because they start from the position of the Church being true they are incapable of seeing how problematic the anecdotes from Church history are. The saying goes "A liar ought to have a good memory", but when you're dealing with almost 200 years worth of lies and selective memory you can see why they end up saying some of this ridiculous nonsense.


These are good points.

So Elder Rasband is quoting from an uncanonized John Taylor revelation. I understand why this is problematic. Do you think it possible Elder Rasband is seeking to equate the Taylor revelation with the Nelson revelation in order to make the latter look more like the former, and that there is a seamless continuation of revelation from the beginning until the present?

I do have to say I am pretty amazed that Elder Rasband is quoting Taylor revelations virtually nobody (except fundamentalists) have ever read or even heard of; and Elder Renlund is telling stories from church history that virtually nobody has ever heard of.

I know they are doing it to reinforce the company line, but I do not recall this kind of thing in a long time.

In fact, maybe the last time I can think of it was Bruce R. McConkie referencing (without mentioning) journals relating to the papyrus translation and saying that this system of things has been going on for (however many) billion years. I think that was in his Seven Deadly Heresies speech.

But that was almost 40-years ago, and even then it stuck out like a sore thumb.

I do have to repeat a line I liked.

You can't take two steps in the minefield of church history without losing a limb.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:26 am 
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Consiglieri,

You have to remember these are men who think it is a good idea to "celebrate" the 40 year anniversary on the cancellation of a man made racist policy.

These are also men who think stories about God inspiring them to go the wrong way down a road are good object lessons.

And finally these are men who are used to the masses praising anything they do as inspired regardless of what it is, even when it contradicts something done by previous inspired men.

When your worldview defends any evil as necessary to some man made plan credited to a god, any story, any event, any scripture can be presented in such a way it shows the church in a positive light.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:54 am 
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:razz: But to argue at the Temple....this is the worst.


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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:19 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
It would be cool if Renlund subversively jiggled a worm on a hook in order to inspire a deep dive into church history, but his mention can be otherwise explained. First, he may be coming from a place of knowing the history and assuming it is largely known by church members, and/or if it isn't known, that through the mention, he can serve as example of knowing the history and still believing.

I noticed the talk's footnotes reference page 319 of Givens and Grow's biography, Parley P. Pratt: The Apostle Paul of Mormonism, which is accessible and provides background on the incident (pp. 245-46).


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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:05 pm 
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Tom wrote:
I noticed the talk's footnotes reference page 319 of Givens and Grow's biography, Parley P. Pratt: The Apostle Paul of Mormonism, which is accessible and provides background on the incident (pp. 245-46).


I went to the link and it looks to me like only the first and last chapters of the book are available there.

Do you have any way of copying and pasting the relevant pages?

I am wondering if this book by Givens and Grow tells the full story.

The source I cited came from a 1990 Signature Books biography of Parley Pratt.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:09 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
And finally these are men who are used to the masses praising anything they do as inspired regardless of what it is, even when it contradicts something done by previous inspired men.



Speaking of that, I was modestly surprised to hear President Nelson state in the Sunday morning session of General Conference that we worship Jesus.

Quote:
What a glorious privilege it has been to celebrate Easter with you on this Sunday of general conference! Nothing could be more fitting than to commemorate the most important event that ever occurred on this earth by worshipping the most important being who ever walked this earth. In this, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we worship Him who commenced His infinite Atonement in the Garden of Gethsemane.


Maybe he didn't get the McConkie Memo?

Quote:
1. We worship the Father and him only and no one else.

We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense—the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.


http://www.josephsmithfoundation.org/au ... -the-lord/

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:29 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
Speaking of that, I was modestly surprised to hear President Nelson state in the Sunday morning session of General Conference that we worship Jesus.


I remember hearing that and thinking it was odd too. I suppose the expected defense of that would be that it really doesn't matter, but as you point out, there was a time when McConkie really thought it mattered.

But it appears to be something that is being more commonly referred to. Here's Rasband a few years ago:

Worship Jesus By Emulating Him

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:41 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
So Parley was so angry that his wife found out about the second wife that the brothers were enemies. A disgusting arrangement.

Seems like the talk was about reconciliation. I wonder how that worked out for Mary Ann? Did she stay in the church? Perhaps she found reconciliation in leaving it.

I think she was sealed to Joseph Smith as one of his plural wives (before she divorced Parley), came out to Utah and died in Pleasant Grive. But I’ll look more up on her to make sure!


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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:53 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
Do you have any way of copying and pasting the relevant pages?

This should hopefully take you to it (if I did it right...)

Stinky Linky Pinky Doo Dah

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:37 pm 
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Doctor Steuss wrote:

Brilliant!!!

That sort of does work.

You are a genius!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:05 pm 
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cinepro wrote:
consiglieri wrote:
Speaking of that, I was modestly surprised to hear President Nelson state in the Sunday morning session of General Conference that we worship Jesus.


I remember hearing that and thinking it was odd too. I suppose the expected defense of that would be that it really doesn't matter, but as you point out, there was a time when McConkie really thought it mattered.

But it appears to be something that is being more commonly referred to. Here's Rasband a few years ago:

Worship Jesus By Emulating Him


McConkie just couldn't find much of anything of value about Elohim, God the Father, anywhere in print, anciently or in modern times, so he decided apparently it was time to give dad his due, since Dad wasn't gonna do anything. It really was a ridiculous talk he gave, to be sure. But then, being anti-Greek learning, or any intellectual endeavors whatsoever, McConkie wouldn't have known Jesus worship was o.k. with him, via the.....uh...... New Testament, you know, the book McConkie himself wrote commentaries on? Yeah, that one.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:20 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
Researching General Conference for RFM podcast.

[SNIP!]

And if he knew the backdrop, why is he taking the chance that members will research it and find out for themselves what the rift was about?

Thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Why all the hubbub about Consensual/Non-Consensual Immorality? Everyone know Horny Holy Joe did it under threat of a flaming sword. My first thought was to wonder what on earth he was talking about.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:16 am 
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Can't we say they open a can of worms each time they reference something from the Church's history?

mention the first vision, and the can of worms about the "Strange" account might come up.
Mention the Book of Mormon and the whole "translation" process might be looked into.
Dare to mention the Book of Abraham, just try it these days.
Mention their troubles in Kirtland, Missouri, or Nauvoo and someone might get curious enough to look into it.

I'd wager, though, with both Renlund and Rasband neither did the research themselves. It may be their research assistants, whoever they may be, including their own "secretaries" did the research, provided them the references and they were used to deliver the message.


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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:57 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
Tom wrote:
The source I cited came from a 1990 Signature Books biography of Parley Pratt.


Many Mormons regard Signature Books as an antimormon publisher, which effectively immunises them against unhelpful truth revealed in it's publications.

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 Post subject: Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:18 pm 
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Mormonicious wrote:
Why all the hubbub about Consensual/Non-Consensual Immorality? Everyone know Horny Holy Joe did it under threat of a flaming sword. My first thought was to wonder what on earth he was talking about.

What exactly did "Horny Holy Joe" do, under the "threat of a flaming sword"?

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