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 Post subject: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:40 am 
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I never should have been required to report to each board member individually after this took place. I reported to the board president. This is what John and the board president did without informing others. I then reported to every member of the board. It's not my job to make any more reports directly to the OSF.

The burden is not on me, but the OSF.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7kaN0 ... stake president=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7kaN0 ... stake president=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7kaN0 ... stake president=sharing

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I've been using the same handle, Rosebud, for several years. It predates the issues I discuss here. The handle is therefore not intended to lend any significance to any of my MormonDiscussions.com posts, any of the conflicts I choose to address on this board, or any poster besides myself. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:00 am 
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I don't' know why I'm responding, honestly. But...what are you doing? This post means nothing, and your other posts feel unhinged. Look, no doubt you're hurting and need some sort of resolve, but this is just unproductive for everyone. I think I've seen people appeal to you in asking you to seek some professional help. You may need it. I'm no expert, I hardly ever have dealt with anyone who seems so unhinged in my life, so don't take my word for it. Go...find a professional and have a sit down.

Either that or you are a troll trying your best to keep people's attention John-ward. If the latter, well, then I should probably just ignore.


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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:26 am 
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What you're saying is that it's okay for John to terminate me and make very public posts about my lack of credibility, but that it is not okay for me to defend myself. And, that if I do defend myself, that means I need therapy and am unhinged. That's exactly the approach John has been taking for several years.

There are many who will take your approach. I understand that and I disagree. I am not afraid of being called names. It happens.

There are many who take this approach. This is the approach: 1) treat someone badly enough that the do things that might look on the outside, from the perspective of an uninformed observer, as irrational, 2) take advantage of the uninformed observer's naiveté in regards to the situation and agree with the uninformed observer's perception, 3) roll with that perception and publicize it getting many uniformed people to agree with you, 4) go back to the person who is behaving rationally due to the circumstances and say, "See, look, everybody thinks you're irrational so you are." This approach is classic abuse.

That said, I agree that it would have been in my best interests to let this go a long time ago. Unfortunately, there are other circumstances in my life that don't make that the best decision for me at this moment. It also aligns with the current press, so there you have it.

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I've been using the same handle, Rosebud, for several years. It predates the issues I discuss here. The handle is therefore not intended to lend any significance to any of my MormonDiscussions.com posts, any of the conflicts I choose to address on this board, or any poster besides myself. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:33 am 
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He didn't terminate you because you weren't an employee. Jesus.

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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:52 am 
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Rosebud wrote:
What you're saying is that it's okay for John to terminate me and make very public posts about my lack of credibility, but that it is not okay for me to defend myself.


No. I'm not saying that.

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And, that if I do defend myself, that means I need therapy and am unhinged. That's exactly the approach John has been taking for several years.


No, again. I'm saying your posts here make you come off as unhinged, in my estimation. Indeed, I don't see your posts here as defending yourself at all. I really hate the notion that a woman who was harassed or assaulted, as it seems like you might have been, should be told they are crazy. With that said, I doubt John has mentioned you in any way in years, so I'm not sure what you would be defending against anyway.

[quoteThere are many who will take your approach. I understand that and I disagree. I am not afraid of being called names. It happens.

There are many who take this approach. This is the approach: 1) treat someone badly enough that the do things that might look on the outside, from the perspective of an uninformed observer, as irrational, 2) take advantage of the uninformed observer's naiveté in regards to the situation and agree with the uninformed observer's perception, 3) roll with that perception and publicize it getting many uniformed people to agree with you, 4) go back to the person who is behaving rationally due to the circumstances and say, "See, look, everybody thinks you're irrational so you are." This approach is classic abuse. [/quote]

Well, it's not my attention to abuse you. As I said, this is not my area at all. I mean no offense. I just worry, that if genuine, you have some issues that need to be dealt with, with someone who is most credible and able to deal with these issues. And if John mistreated you in some way or many ways, then, shame on him. And I'm sorry for that which you have gone through.

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That said, I agree that it would have been in my best interests to let this go a long time ago. Unfortunately, there are other circumstances in my life that don't make that the best decision for me at this moment. It also aligns with the current press, so there you have it.


i'm sorry to hear it.


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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:16 pm 
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First, I want to say that I believe you. But even with that in mind, you need to either make a complaint or move on to the healing phase. As an old woman who has been in the workplace for a VERY long time and who has dated many, many, many men (some of them coworkers!), I think I understand. I've been there with bad workplaces. I've been there with bad romances. I've been there when they intersected. Let me give you a little heartfelt advice:

There is not always a right to a wrong.

It's hard to hear that, but it's reality. Sometimes bad stuff happens to us, others are at fault, and they don't have to pay. This may be one of those cases.

But, even if you "won", the hurt and pain won't just magically disappear. A person who was mugged in a dark alley at gun point doesn't magically start being less afraid of dark alleys because their mugger went to jail. Winning does not bring healing. You have trauma from a past event and only you can heal that pain. For every minute you think of what happened, you're wasting precious time on this earth that could be used for literally anything else. You owe it to yourself to heal. If you think it's best to make one more complaint to the OSF board, do it now. But then let it go.


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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:30 pm 
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Thank you Tuna. I can tell that you care. I appreciate it.

I would like you to believe me when I share that the reason it's easier for me to do this right now is that I have healed from John and gone on with my life to the extent that I am able to do that dependent on the amount of control I have over my circumstances. Sometimes there are other circumstances beyond an individual's control that affect decisions. The time I was most unwell was the summer of 2012 when I was coping with John and the ways he was controlling me and preparing his attack that we have now all seen play out. Healing has been a process since then, but I feel so calm about John now that your words don't really resonate with me beyond the fact that I can tell that you care. John is.... idk... I can't really see what people see in him. That's the 2018 me. Whatever. But what he's doing is significant to many people. This is not about John and me.

And, I have said before, there are other circumstances besides my feelings that are incentivizing me right now.

One thing that I think is helpful for everyone to remember is that the response each person has to what I'm doing tells us about the individual having the response more than it says anything about me. That goes for people and life in general.....

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I've been using the same handle, Rosebud, for several years. It predates the issues I discuss here. The handle is therefore not intended to lend any significance to any of my MormonDiscussions.com posts, any of the conflicts I choose to address on this board, or any poster besides myself. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:34 pm 
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Oh... and with that in mind, the point about it not being my job to report again is about calling the OSF to the carpet. Any good HR policy should state a victim only has to report once. The OSF may try to make the excuse that they're not addressing this because I'm not following their link and submitting an official report.

I'm saying, "Duh... you already messed this one up and you already have all the documents in your files. Nice that you have a policy now, but you can't get around your accountability by stating you don't have to look at this because I didn't make an official report. I did. I made more official reports than I should have had to."

I hope that clears up what might have been misconstrued as emotion.

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I've been using the same handle, Rosebud, for several years. It predates the issues I discuss here. The handle is therefore not intended to lend any significance to any of my MormonDiscussions.com posts, any of the conflicts I choose to address on this board, or any poster besides myself. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:34 pm 
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Rosebud wrote:
One thing that I think is helpful for everyone to remember is that the response each person has to what I'm doing tells us about the individual having the response more than it says anything about me. That goes for people and life in general.....


Image

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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:44 pm 
Savior (resurrected)

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I can relate to the need to putting things out in the open. The trauma I experienced was not so public, but the abuser is known commonly and there have been several occasions where we've caught him trying to exploit others. It was too late to warn the person to which he knowingly sold defective tires. We were able to warn the insurance company he was trying to defraud. We tried to warn his wife but she didn't believe us. So we're open about him when we deem it appropriate.

I imagine the feeling would be much more compelling, and frequently so, if the offender was a public figure with exponentially more influence.


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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:45 pm 
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Thanks for that post, Tuna_Surprise, I thought there was a ton of great truth in there. Whether talking about abuses sexual or some other wrong we can attach far too much of our healing into the "justice" of the situation when often we could start our healing journey independent of it.

It is related to the topic at hand so I'll drop it here for lack of a better segue. My wife ordered and together we read The Female Persuasion by Meg Wolitzer basically the second it came out. It is a super powerful novel touching on a ton of these topics (sexual assault, new vs old feminism, learning to raise one's voice, and concepts of justice) that I would highly recommend. Here is an interview she did for NPR where she explains why she lets the abuser get away with it in her book:

Quote:
On her decision to have Greer's assaulter get away with it and continue to mistreat women

We all would love the idea of people getting what's coming to them in books and in life, but sometimes the trajectory is a little more complicated than that. ... He's still out there. ... I don't want to turn him into a cartoon villain. I want him to have done this, you know, really horrible thing in the beginning of the book ... and [get] away with it and [march] through the world in a way that some men have been allowed to do. But he's still there. ... I think what we remember of the books we love isn't so much plot, but character. To me, he's a figure I know and he was always lurking around the edges of my mind.


ETA: I fell like I should add that I have no take on the Rosebud/John situation, the water is far too murky for me to make a call and I'm not willing to do the digging to sort it out (shame on me, I'm sure). I just really liked Tuna's expression of the healing process.

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Last edited by Xenophon on Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:58 pm 
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I love how the accused has no recourse if he doesn't want to get sucked into public drama. He's labelled an abuser and there's nothing he can do about it because people just believe the confessed adulterer's accusations despite demonstrating an obsessive need to slander him and, to this day, can't provide any proof of her claims and won't do anything beyond ____ post on a message board.

Nice.

Stating outright that you believe someone just because they're making the claim is so irresponsible.

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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:58 pm 
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I can't type much and I am sure 100% are thankful.

I think the people are missing a beat. It's important for Rosebud to air this out because John Dehlin threw a lot of people under the bus within the Mormon Stories community and attempted to silence some in the process using seriously ridiculous methods (IMO). Also, it's pertinent now because Dehlin, and others, jumped on the chance to ride the publicity train of the MTC sex assault case.

Dehlin's done a lot of good as a reposting guru and podcast host. He brought a lot information to people that apparently couldn't search the internet (kidding, but really). I enjoyed his interviews.

It's a shame we have this mess. I hope in time everyone heals. I know I wouldn't want past mistakes to keep popping up. It's got to suck. My heart actually aches now that I type these few sentences. I really do hope people start to heal.

What is weird, people are mad at Rosebud. Flipping out and demanding she communicate in a specific manner and even asking for her to either sue or shut up. WTF? Why does one need to sue in this case? She got messed over. Look at us, on a Mormon oriented message board, most of us post-Mo, and still talking about how the Church lied to us and whatever other ____ that pisses us off. See, it's not easy to just let phenomena slide.

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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Uh. Because this has gone on FOR OVER FIVE ____ ING YEARS?

____ or get off the pot. It's just bitter vindictiveness at this point. And to be fair, I don't believe anything she's saying because she won't provide proof of anything, and if she had anything to begin with she would've already lawyered up.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:25 pm 
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Rosebud wrote:
One thing that I think is helpful for everyone to remember is that the response each person has to what I'm doing tells us about the individual having the response more than it says anything about me. That goes for people and life in general.....

I think it's helpful to remember that the comments you receive here are based on your own behavior.

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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:27 pm 
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John,

So.... I did some Googling and saw that you made a post asking for recommendations on a defamation attorneys.

I don't know how much you know about lawsuits, but the first thing that would happen is that we'd both release every email that ever went between us. And you'd be required to release every email in which you mentioned my name, ever. I'd have to do the same for you. And attorneys would subpoena all related emails from elsewhere, too. All of the posts on this board and their dates and how they coincided with public events would be scoured.

I mean, I think litigation is really silly and stupid and that the courts are full of unwell people trying to intimidate each other and steal things from each other. I wouldn't sue. It's a crazy process, but it isn't a one-way thing. I would probably end up looking for emails that went between you and other women. And when it's part of a court case, people have to send them in. Maybe they'd want to. Idk.

And then all of that would just be released to the public because that's the whole point of the suit, right? I don't know what you have on me to shame me? Those texts where I asked if you'd grow antlers if you answered me and gave me my files? Wouldn't I just tell a jury how awful it was to lose all my work to you and how I was just trying to get you to answer because you had intellectual property that belonged to me? I like the book Imogene's Antlers, that's all. Would you try to shame me conversation we had about what your dad said about your relationship in August (here I am not telling the world about that text conversation to protect you because it would be embarrassing for you, but you're thinking you'll use these conversations to shame me like you did in your reply to the charge)? How would that shame me and how would it change the power imbalance and even the reason why you gave me the job? I could talk about the Quinn conference, etc.

The world is different in 2018 than it was in 2012. I know you think you've destroyed my credibility, but I don't think the posts on this board are a good indication of the credibility I really have. And couldn't that be one of my arguments against you? All the work you put into destroying my credibility? Who'd win? Would the OSF pay your legal fees? Would I ask for donations to cover mine? Shoot, the doxxing thread here is awesome for me. After that thread I texted the board and you haven't posted here since. I wonder what happened? We could ask people during their depositions.

I mean yeah.... I protect my IRL name, but I'm not scared. It's just a name. I am who I am regardless.

I know you don't like the way I've released this, but that goes back to me practically begging for a win-win solution and all of my extreme fear in 2012 because of your release plan. You didn't care. Zero empathy or compassion. Your first attorney wouldn't even do what you wanted because it was too cruel.

I know it's all exciting when people sue the church, but I haven't got any money to take. If you got a judgement against me, then what? I mean, I get that it's about publicity and that it hurts. But what about all the people you've hurt with publicity? Wouldn't that come into it too? Look at all of the evidence I could draw from.

If I speak, I speak. Doesn't a suit just amplify my voice?

I don't know John. It all seems very foolish. And expensive. What if I won a huge judgement? A judgement I'm not even trying or wanting to take? A lawsuit seems like a mess for you.

Maybe real repentance would be a better idea. Another false repentance podcast probably wouldn't cut it. Why should I be afraid of those now? I was terrified in 2012 and 2013, but I'm not scared anymore. I grew up. I've dealt with a lot since then. Being scared is a waste.

You're out publicly supporting women and then you sue an employee you sexually harassed? It seems dumb. There has to be a better way. You don't have to be perfect, but it would be a good idea to knock it off. Take a serious look at what you're doing.

Anyway.... those are just my thoughts. I really am sorry this hurts. But look at me, I still have empathy for you, even now, and you have no empathy for me. Food for thought. Some people are incapable of empathy, but I don't believe you fall into that category.

Best, -RB

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I've been using the same handle, Rosebud, for several years. It predates the issues I discuss here. The handle is therefore not intended to lend any significance to any of my MormonDiscussions.com posts, any of the conflicts I choose to address on this board, or any poster besides myself. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:37 pm 
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No comment Rosebud. I wish you many good things.


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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:13 am 
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candygal wrote:
No comment Rosebud. I wish you many good things.

Thank you candygal. That was a nice post to find at the end of one of these threads.

John, another thing I'm wondering this morning is how you'd plan on explaining all of your really obvious retaliations if you sued me for defamation? Just the Facebook bannings are too much retaliation. It just doesn't work.

I would advise figuring out a better way to live than using Facebook and podcasts to try to frighten people.... all of that works against you. Sure, you use it for good sometimes, but somebody with a steadier head should be in charge.

And to the board: please try to see things from a different perspective than the one John speaks so passionately.

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I've been using the same handle, Rosebud, for several years. It predates the issues I discuss here. The handle is therefore not intended to lend any significance to any of my MormonDiscussions.com posts, any of the conflicts I choose to address on this board, or any poster besides myself. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:33 am 
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lostindc wrote:
I can't type much and I am sure 100% are thankful.

I think the people are missing a beat. It's important for Rosebud to air this out because John Dehlin threw a lot of people under the bus within the Mormon Stories community and attempted to silence some in the process using seriously ridiculous methods (IMO).

Well seeing as this type of stuff has interested me as it pertains to the Church I might find this interesting too. But, I'd need more than bald claims to feed me. When you say, "John Dehlin threw a lot of people under the bus"... how many? How was there throwing under the bus? What would that mean? It sounds like in this context you are saying he threw Rosebud under the bus. How so?

Quote:
Also, it's pertinent now because Dehlin, and others, jumped on the chance to ride the publicity train of the MTC sex assault case.

Well this is right up the alley of what is Dehlin's career. I don't see how you can fault him for that. As he has defined his career he has nothing but an obligation to address this stuff. If you think, or Rosebud thinks, he's nothing more than a Joseph Bishop and so he shouldn't be addressing it, then say so. But don't just say so. prove it. It means nothing to be a gnat on a message board that relatively few people encounter. (I don't mean to offend anyone here. Just saying, the readership here is not on a scale of the millions).
Quote:
Dehlin's done a lot of good as a reposting guru and podcast host. He brought a lot information to people that apparently couldn't search the internet (kidding, but really). I enjoyed his interviews.

It's a shame we have this mess.

what mess?

Quote:
I hope in time everyone heals. I know I wouldn't want past mistakes to keep popping up. It's got to suck. My heart actually aches now that I type these few sentences. I really do hope people start to heal.

What is weird, people are mad at Rosebud. Flipping out and demanding she communicate in a specific manner and even asking for her to either sue or shut up. WTF?

People are frustrated with the manner in which she communicates, it seems to me. I am. I can't tell if she's genuine and just hurting in a way I can't possibly respond to, or if she's just playing with us...honestly. I don't' know why I'm continuing this other than to wonder if there really is anything to this. Not because I don't like Dehlin...not because I like drama (although it can entertain), but because I don't' want to feel like I support in any way something that is problematic. the way you and Rosebud talk, I doubt I'd be able to listen to Mormonstories again. But so far it's just talk. And I have no way to know otherwise.

Quote:
Why does one need to sue in this case? She got messed over. Look at us, on a Mormon oriented message board, most of us post-Mo, and still talking about how the Church lied to us and whatever other ____ that pisses us off. See, it's not easy to just let phenomena slide.

I get it, if what you say is true. But it makes little sense if it's not true. If you feel or Rosebud feels misused by John. I can feel bad for you. But if you feel that way, and just come off as complaining about it without anything for the listener to go off of, then what can you possibly expect in response?


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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:05 am 
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My understanding is that Rosebud and Dehlin had an affair some time ago that ended poorly. But of course these matters don't end well usually. Beyond an affair, is there more?

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 Post subject: Re: It's not my job to report again
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:58 am 
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Exiled wrote:
My understanding is that Rosebud and Dehlin had an affair some time ago that ended poorly. But of course these matters don't end well usually. Beyond an affair, is there more?


No. Just 5 years of slander.

- Doc


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