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 Post subject: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:55 pm 
God
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A new Radio Free Mormon podcast just went public yesterday.

It is called, "Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics."

I didn't want to point attention to it until it went off subscriber only status.

Technically it is parts 1 and 2 of a 3 part series.

Part 3 is still in the works.

In summary:

Part 1 establishes the LDS Church tied its truth claims to its phenomenal rate of growth in decades past.

Part 2 establishes that all the top leadership are aware that the phenomenal growth is over and/or that members are jumping ship like rats off the Titanic.

Part 3 will examine the lengths (and lies) LDS leadership go to in order to address the crisis--said crisis being, what do you do when you have pinned your truth claims to phenomenal growth and that growth drops off to practically nil?

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/201 ... tics-pt-1/

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/201 ... tics-pt-2/

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:05 pm 
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Always good news when a new RFM episode drops.


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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:33 pm 
God

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Woot,,,,something to look forward to..Thanks!! And if there are any other kinds of lies...I will let you know!!


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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:43 pm 
God
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You're going to be excommunicated. Yes indeed.

:cool:

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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:48 pm 
God
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Shulem wrote:
You're going to be excommunicated. Yes indeed.

:cool:


They have to catch me first!

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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:11 pm 
God
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Part I was great. Loved it. Ready for part II.

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Mormon apologetics is simply the process of drawing a target around where the arrow fell. (I have a question)

And when the landing spot of the arrow is moved, RE-DRAW THE TARGET. (Polygamy-Porter)


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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:16 pm 
God
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You know, to be honest, doing the research for part 1 actually reminded me why it was so exciting to be a Mormon back in the 1970's.

It made me nostalgic in a way.

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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:10 am 
Bishop
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Text?

You know, there are some like me, who don't like video and audio.
Text, if I may ask.

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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:46 am 
God
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Part II was very enjoyable. Thanks.

The church moves with the times and shapes and describes itself accordingly. It's all about making the church look good and making it fit into the one true mold no matter what it takes. When I was a TBM I used to think that Mormons were the most honest and sincere people on earth but now know that this is actually quite the opposite. Mormonism distorts honestly and sincerity and tells its own version of perceived truth in order to maintain faith and testimony. Don't talk about certain things, emphasize other things, deny this and that, and everything in the end will work out. That's Mormonism in a nutshell, hoping for things that can't be seen or proven. It's faith in a dream and things that aren't real.

You know what consiglieri, I really think you should do a podcast on the Book of Abraham. I know that seems daunting and you probably think you're unqualified but that's not the case. Everybody has the right to discuss the Book of Abraham to the best of their knowledge. You might consider doing a podcast on Facsimile No. 3. You know the basic facts. There is plenty of good information available on the web that provides accurate details. It would be a slam dunk. Think about it. You might really have fun tearing into Facsimile No. 3 and comparing Smith's bogus version with real Egyptology.

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Mormon apologetics is simply the process of drawing a target around where the arrow fell. (I have a question)

And when the landing spot of the arrow is moved, RE-DRAW THE TARGET. (Polygamy-Porter)


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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:59 am 
God
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Shulem wrote:
You know what consiglieri, I really think you should do a podcast on the Book of Abraham. I know that seems daunting and you probably think you're unqualified but that's not the case. Everybody has the right to discuss the Book of Abraham to the best of their knowledge. You might consider doing a podcast on Facsimile No. 3. You know the basic facts. There is plenty of good information available on the web that provides accurate details. It would be a slam dunk. Think about it. You might really have fun tearing into Facsimile No. 3 and comparing Smith's bogus version with real Egyptology.


Paul, I agree and I think it would be fun for everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:39 am 
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Paul the new podcaster joins consiglieri as his guest to tear into the book of abraham and facsimile no. 3 .....

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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:49 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
Part 3 will examine the lengths (and lies) LDS leadership go to in order to address the crisis--said crisis being, what do you do when you have pinned your truth claims to phenomenal growth and that growth drops off to practically nil?


Spoiler alert. My dad informs me that rejecting the gospel and the world getting more secular (i.e., wicked) is a sign that the end is near. Heads they win; tails we lose.


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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:12 pm 
God

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I haven't read any replies yet...saving this for the weekend!! Anticipation is a wonderful thing..almost sexy even.. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:08 am 
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Hey consiglieri,

Those are awesome episodes. I'm curious in Part II you seem to spend a lot of time and energy trying to establish/prove that Marlin Jensen, along with other subsequent comments, is really saying that apostasy has really happened. Have you heard a lot of people claiming that it not what he meant? Curious because I do believe some posters like on MD&D have fought against the notion.

I enjoyed how you tied in other comments, explained how the seemingly are all related to the notion that they know of the problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:56 am 
God
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Tuna_Surprise wrote:
Spoiler alert. My dad informs me that rejecting the gospel and the world getting more secular (i.e., wicked) is a sign that the end is near. Heads they win; tails we lose.

"That's the beauty of it".

It has been my experience that the single most important quality a scripture or prophetic statement can have is the ability to have multiple meanings, and many times those meanings are directly at odds with each other. So the Salt Lake City version of the church Joseph Smith started can be "filling the earth" and also be limited to a few who are "chosen".

Given that the church's main claim to authority rests on having some really old guy who talks to god, it is not held to any particular past statement or standards. Time and time again it has shown the ability to dismiss what was thought to be doctrine as merely the misconceptions of men, never mind those men held the same office current deniers hold, after all no one but the current prophet is held to be perfect.

So what ever growth claims that were used to back up truth claims were merely the result of divinely inspired men speaking out of the fallible sides of their mouths.

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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:06 am 
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Stem wrote:
Hey consiglieri,

Those are awesome episodes. I'm curious in Part II you seem to spend a lot of time and energy trying to establish/prove that Marlin Jensen, along with other subsequent comments, is really saying that apostasy has really happened. Have you heard a lot of people claiming that it not what he meant? Curious because I do believe some posters like on MD&D have fought against the notion.

I enjoyed how you tied in other comments, explained how the seemingly are all related to the notion that they know of the problems.

I feel it was important in part 2 to prove unequivocally that the top fifteen are completely aware of the fact that growth is not only slowing, but that members are jumping off the ship in unprecedented numbers.

In other words, that Marlin Jensen was telling the truth.

The reason this is important is because in part 3 (spoiler alert), I will be playing audio from Elder Cook in General Conference denying the fact (and implicitly calling Elder Jensen a liar), and then Elder Holland in Dallas, Texas, claiming the church has never been growing faster than it is today.

These are both absolute lies. But I have to lay the groundwork in order to show how badly their apostolic trousers are on fire.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)


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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:14 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
I feel it was important in part 2 to prove unequivocally that the top fifteen are completely aware of the fact that growth is not only slowing, but that members are jumping off the ship in unprecedented numbers.

In other words, that Marlin Jensen was telling the truth.

The reason this is important is because in part 3 (spoiler alert), I will be playing audio from Elder Cook in General Conference denying the fact (and implicitly calling Elder Jensen a liar), and then Elder Holland in Dallas, Texas, claiming the church has never been growing faster than it is today.

These are both absolute lies. But I have to lay the groundwork in order to show how badly their apostolic trousers are on fire.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Yes! Great. Makes sense. I'm looking forward to part III then. It's an odd illusion they are trying to create.


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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:26 pm 
God
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Stem wrote:
Yes! Great. Makes sense. I'm looking forward to part III then. It's an odd illusion they are trying to create.



Agreed. And that is why it is taking three episodes to put all the pieces in place.

I believe it is precisely because they have publicly and prophetically created the idea that church growth equals church truth that they have painted themselves into this corner.

The church was going to continue to grow and grow until it had filled all of North and South America; it was going to continue to grow until it filled the world.

But now that growth has dropped off dramatically, the choices of what to do are limited.

The first, and most obvious choice, would be to tell the truth--that we thought this was the case and we said this was the case, but it looks like we were wrong, although it is possible in the future it will pick up and continue forward as we predicted originally.

The second choice is to monkey with the statistics to make the church look like it is continuing to grow when it, in fact, is not. This includes changing the idea that children born to LDS couples are not counted as members until they are confirmed a member at the age of eight. This counting method was changed a number of years back, possibly around 1989-90, to begin counting all children of LDS members as soon as they are born/blessed, without waiting for them to turn eight and be confirmed. (Church membership boomed.)

Another way of monkeying with the statistics has to do with the vast number of Mormons who are not active--probably about 11 million of the reported 16 million. At least as of 2005, Elder Merrill Bateman was quoted as saying that the Church had instituted a policy that continued to count such inactive members on the rolls until they turn 110 years old.

The third choice is to just lie about it, and say that the church is continuing to experience unprecedented growth (as Elder Holland did in Dallas, Texas, a couple of years ago), and to say that the reports of people leaving the LDS Church are greatly exaggerated and that people are actually not leaving in record numbers (as Elder Cook did in General Conference a few years back).

The fourth choice is to begin to insert a new definition of church "growth," which has not to do with the number of members, but with something else entirely. We saw President Eyring begin this definitional shift during the broadcast of the new First Presidency in January, I think.

And of course, it probably goes without saying that the LDS Church has not opted for choice number one of simply being honest and transparent, but has opted for choices numbers two through four.

This is what episode three will cover.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)


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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:48 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
And of course, it probably goes without saying that the LDS Church has not opted for choice number one of simply being honest and transparent, but has opted for choices numbers two through four.


The LDS church will NEVER be open and transparent. It's simply not possible for the nature of the beast to become a different creature than what it is. This church was originally founded upon principles of secrecy and oaths that keep the leadership of the church above any accountability with the world or the general members of the church. We must keep in mind foremost, the LDS church is a cult and it will ever remain a cult until its last breath. The church cannot change. It was created in the image of Joseph Smith's lies and secret combinations to include masonic rites, pretended revelations, polygamy, and promises of becoming gods in the hereafter.

No, the church will never change. Not ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:07 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
Agreed. And that is why it is taking three episodes to put all the pieces in place.

I believe it is precisely because they have publicly and prophetically created the idea that church growth equals church truth that they have painted themselves into this corner.


I think you'll find more and more members are trying to downplay the "growth as truth" aspect of it. Some say it was expected all along that the growth would stop or slow, and it'll soon turn around and start declining. Thus "many are called but few chosen" acting as if the Church didn't get all excited as growth rates increased in the 50s and 60s to the point of tying the growth to truth. You nailed it when you offered the quote by McConkie. That attitude is precisely what you'd see from seemingly invincible growth. Bednar's use of it is nothing but supporting the illusion, trying to keep that old time attitude.

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The church was going to continue to grow and grow until it had filled all of North and South America; it was going to continue to grow until it filled the world.

But now that growth has dropped off dramatically, the choices of what to do are limited.

The first, and most obvious choice, would be to tell the truth--that we thought this was the case and we said this was the case, but it looks like we were wrong, although it is possible in the future it will pick up and continue forward as we predicted originally.


Yes. My god your comment about Uchtdorf signing his demotion by seemingly bending this is direction feels spot on too.

Quote:
The second choice is to monkey with the statistics to make the church look like it is continuing to grow when it, in fact, is not. This includes changing the idea that children born to LDS couples are not counted as members until they are confirmed a member at the age of eight. This counting method was changed a number of years back, possibly around 1989-90, to begin counting all children of LDS members as soon as they are born/blessed, without waiting for them to turn eight and be confirmed. (Church membership boomed.)


The Church in recent years decided to trim down the size of stakes as well. What resulted was a huge increase in stakes in 2016, as the Church stretched for 100 new stakes. So the growth rate of stakes in 2016 was 2.9% but the growth rate in wards and branches was .96%. I think we'll see the same for 2017 when it comes out. And in 2018 at least so far, it looks like stake creations have decreased. But remember Holland's claim of double digit stake creations each week?

It was interesting watching some of the faithful get a bit excited for 2016 growth because it represented "real growth" compared to the fake growth that occurred when growth rates were staggeringly high.

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Another way of monkeying with the statistics has to do with the vast number of Mormons who are not active--probably about 11 million of the reported 16 million. At least as of 2005, Elder Merrill Bateman was quoted as saying that the Church had instituted a policy that continued to count such inactive members on the rolls until they turn 110 years old.


Well in the middle of my mission sister Jack told us there were 10 million strong. if nothing else there's been some good effort to steer clear of such tough talk to some extent.

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The third choice is to just lie about it, and say that the church is continuing to experience unprecedented growth (as Elder Holland did in Dallas, Texas, a couple of years ago), and to say that the reports of people leaving the LDS Church are greatly exaggerated and that people are actually not leaving in record numbers (as Elder Cook did in General Conference a few years back).


That's easy at this point. When there are members around the globe in so many counties it's easy to throw out a few figures and make it appear it's all positive, particularly for the masses who aren't really concerned with the details of any particular claim. So I imagine this will continue.

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The fourth choice is to begin to insert a new definition of church "growth," which has not to do with the number of members, but with something else entirely. We saw President Eyring begin this definitional shift during the broadcast of the new First Presidency in January, I think.


I really do think many members hwo follow this also think that the converts coming in today are stronger than they were 20, 30, 40 years ago. I think the reasoning behind this is to suggest growth today is much more healthy than it was back when missionaries played baseball with kids to rack up baptisms.

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And of course, it probably goes without saying that the LDS Church has not opted for choice number one of simply being honest and transparent, but has opted for choices numbers two through four.

This is what episode three will cover.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Good.


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 Post subject: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (RFM)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:29 pm 
God

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My weekend comes as of tomorrow..so grateful that Consig has given me something to look forward to.

Someday..because you are loved and have an honest love for all people, I wish you could do interviews..with the pros and cons..like a testimony of a principle that has benefited a RS lady...with the same principle being a heavy burden on one that has had different experience..I know this sounds confusing...but it would open a new world of understand on real truth..and its affects.


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