One of the things that bugs me about fundamentalist thinking (which includes a lot of LDS lesson manuals) is the limited geography that a literal reading the Old Testament from Noah to the Tower of Babel and on to the Jaredites assumes. Sunday School discussions about the flood and the tower always start from a literal model. Even as a teenager, I saw this model didn't reflect reality, as revealed in history and archaeology, not to mention geology, biology, linguistics, ethnic and race studies, etc.
One thing that got me going about this was reading a new book about dragons with my grandson. Remember seminary teachers using a near universal existence of flood legends as proof of Noah's and the universal flood? Well my Grandson's book explains that legends about dragons are universal too, which hardly proves anything about dragons except that the human imagination is universal. I might concede a 5% possibility of a limited geography explanation for Nephites existing and disappearing, but I can't see how any concrete evidence can lead to a Noah-Tower of Babel-Jaredite model. All scientific fields appear to refute it.
Old Testament limited geography
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Re: Old Testament limited geography
You might use the analogy of the famous Flat Iron building in New York City. It is rumored that upon completion, workers came away speaking Italian, Polish, Yiddish, and some even had an Irish brogue. Consider that proof of a limited geography within the five boroughs.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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Re: Old Testament limited geography
I once had a great coffee-table book called The Flight of Dragons, which argued seriously that dragons had really existed and only become extinct within early human history. The fact that so many cultures all have legends of dragons was naturally a point that was made on page one. The book's main idea, however, was that dragons flew by accumulating hydrogen inside their bodies to make them lighter than air. Venting excess hydrogen through the mouth would then explain the fiery breath.
Of course the theory itself could never really even get off the ground. It was a genuine theory in the sense that it was based on a substantial idea which was then logically elaborated, but it doesn't take long to think of objections that can only be answered by clutching at straws. It worked in a coffee-table book with large print and plenty of artwork, where awkward details could be omitted without being missed.
The author, Peter Dickinson, was a successful novelist who wrote mostly for children. His dragon book was straight-faced and sober, not at all tongue-in-cheek, because that was the kind of jeu d'esprit he was playing. He didn't actually believe in his theory.
Of course the theory itself could never really even get off the ground. It was a genuine theory in the sense that it was based on a substantial idea which was then logically elaborated, but it doesn't take long to think of objections that can only be answered by clutching at straws. It worked in a coffee-table book with large print and plenty of artwork, where awkward details could be omitted without being missed.
The author, Peter Dickinson, was a successful novelist who wrote mostly for children. His dragon book was straight-faced and sober, not at all tongue-in-cheek, because that was the kind of jeu d'esprit he was playing. He didn't actually believe in his theory.
Re: Old Testament limited geography
It would be rather ridiculous to believe that the Flood of Noah left his ship bobbing around for months in the same geographical area. As for Eden doesn't the Church believe it was in North America?
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Re: Old Testament limited geography
Physics Guy wrote:I once had a great coffee-table book called The Flight of Dragons, which argued seriously that dragons had really existed and only become extinct within early human history. The fact that so many cultures all have legends of dragons was naturally a point that was made on page one. The book's main idea, however, was that dragons flew by accumulating hydrogen inside their bodies to make them lighter than air. Venting excess hydrogen through the mouth would then explain the fiery breath.
Of course the theory itself could never really even get off the ground. It was a genuine theory in the sense that it was based on a substantial idea which was then logically elaborated, but it doesn't take long to think of objections that can only be answered by clutching at straws. It worked in a coffee-table book with large print and plenty of artwork, where awkward details could be omitted without being missed.
The author, Peter Dickinson, was a successful novelist who wrote mostly for children. His dragon book was straight-faced and sober, not at all tongue-in-cheek, because that was the kind of jeu d'esprit he was playing. He didn't actually believe in his theory.
There was a pretty interesting PBS documentary (Nova, I think), that explained the many dragon myths in various cultures as the finding of dinosaur fossils by ancient peoples. They pointed out that even in China today, some people refer to them as dragon bones. There was a time when they were mined and sold as dragon bones for medicinal purposes.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
Re: Old Testament limited geography
Physics Guy wrote:I once had a great coffee-table book called The Flight of Dragons, which argued seriously that dragons had really existed and only become extinct within early human history. The fact that so many cultures all have legends of dragons was naturally a point that was made on page one. The book's main idea, however, was that dragons flew by accumulating hydrogen inside their bodies to make them lighter than air. Venting excess hydrogen through the mouth would then explain the fiery breath.
...
Extinct?
Dang!!
If we could somehow find some of their DNA, and bring them back, we could farm them and set up the (almost equally mythical) hydrogen economy that was being touted by politicians a decade or so ago.
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Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
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Re: Old Testament limited geography
I could accept that theory as fact.Quasimodo wrote:There was a pretty interesting PBS documentary (Nova, I think), that explained the many dragon myths in various cultures as the finding of dinosaur fossils by ancient peoples. They pointed out that even in China today, some people refer to them as dragon bones. There was a time when they were mined and sold as dragon bones for medicinal purposes.
The LDS faith is founded on Protestant fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible. If they were to back down on a literal interpretation of scripture with either book, everything would fall down. So they continue to hold things together with orthopraxy. Orthodoxy of belief is an impossibility because of so many internal contradictions.
"Flight of Dragons" reminds me of "Dynasty of the Holy Grail" by Swanson. I actually have a copy.
Just stating the obvious. Don't even know why I am posting, but to just let you know I am still breathing and reading.
Problems with auto-correct:
In Helaman 6:39, we see the Badmintons, so similar to Skousenite Mormons, taking over the government and abusing the rights of many.
In Helaman 6:39, we see the Badmintons, so similar to Skousenite Mormons, taking over the government and abusing the rights of many.