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 Post subject: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:30 pm 
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You don't need Jesus to tell you what to do. Decide for yourself what you want and how you want to do it. It's your will be done, not Jew-Jesus! Don't allow an imaginary Jew or cultish church to decide your life. That's just stupid and it's turning your life over to an imaginary character, the head of the Christian cult run by priests and men who love to control you and take your money.

You don't need Jesus to be forgiven for doing something wrong. If you've done something wrong then stop doing it and make things right. But don't thirst after Jesus' blood or dwell about him bleeding in a garden crying his heart out to his imaginary god and then bleeding atop a cross because you did something wrong. That's just utter nonsense. You don't need bloody Jesus to make your life right. Give up Jesus and shake off the Christian chains that bind you down and lead you in a manner in which you refuse to take responsibility for your own nasty mistakes thinking you can hand them off to someone else - namely a Neanderthalic looking greasy creep by the name of Jesus.

I'm so thankful that Jesus is not in my life! Bloody Jesus gives me the willies and the idea of his blood and sacrificial rituals required by his so-called father makes me ill. Away with the bible, too -- it's a nasty book full of lies and false stories.

I feel better now. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:49 pm 
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You may not need Jesus, but I definitely do. Those who don't want Jesus' atonement are under no obligation to partake.

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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:51 pm 
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JLHPROF wrote:
You may not need Jesus, but I definitely do.

:eek:

Why?

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:05 pm 
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JLHPROF wrote:
You may not need Jesus, but I definitely do.
Those who don't want Jesus' atonement are under no obligation to partake.

There is no "may" about it. I don't need Jesus, period. I'm my own person and my own man. I don't need a figurative imaginary Jew to rescue me from my own life. But you seem too need such a thing. Can't you just own up to your own life and be responsible? When you do something wrong, make amends, apologize where needed, and set things right and become a better person all by yourself. Quit trying to hand off your wrongs to Jesus as if his bloody suffering is what it takes to make his father forgive you. You don't need either Jesus or his father to be forgiven. Start by forgiving yourself and making whatever amends are needed to make things right. All will be well. Forget about the blood dripping from Jesus' pores and his execution on a cross as a requirement for you to be forgiven by an imaginary god. All that is madness and barbaric ancient torture created by bible prophets and a blood thirty bible god.

Get out of the cult! Wake up! Step into the future, your future.

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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:24 pm 
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JLHPROF wrote:
Those who don't want Jesus' atonement are under no obligation to partake.

The Book of Mormon is pretty explicit in stating that those who refuse to partake of the Christian atonement will suffer the wrath of hell. The Book of Mormon teaches quite plainly that we must partake of the atonement or we will suffer terribly at the hand of god before his judgment seat. The Book of Mormon doesn't provide an optional atonement for mankind but all mankind are commanded to partake of the atonement and are under obligation to do so or suffer at the hands of Christian god.

Think about that. Your religion threatens everyone who refuses to partake of it with death and hell. Your religion threatens me with pain, suffering, death, misery, and god knows what else for my refusing to bow down and partake of the atonement. Just read the scriptures if you don't believe me. It's not a pretty picture for us unbelievers. Your Book of Mormon assaults everyone who rejects its message. The Book of Mormon is criminal in nature! It's a crime against humanity!

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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:44 am 
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If God exists, he certainly didn't need a blood sacrifice prior to being able to forgive his children. The God I imagine always had the power to forgive .... it seems obvious that he would.

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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:49 pm 
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Why does anyone need Jesus?

What specifically does he do for you?

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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:22 pm 
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Exiled wrote:
If God exists, he certainly didn't need a blood sacrifice prior to being able to forgive his children. The God I imagine always had the power to forgive .... it seems obvious that he would.

Exiled,

I think it is well within Christian thought to say that God has the power to forgive. He does not need blood to enable that. He also has the power to choose when forgiveness is appropriate or just when he is going to forgive or not forgive.

"Stalin ,you are forgiven. Easily said, not so easy for it to be real. It reminds me of a marvelous scene in movie Schindlers List. The camp commander is looking in the mirror going through the motions of giving himself absolution. He may sense it is hollow.

Now you and I are unlike those people. It probably is much easier to forgive me for the time I stuck my gum under my chair in third grade. Perhaps there is a more significant question about my adult faults however.

(I am more than a little sure that blood itself is not the basis for forgiving anything.)


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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:14 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
I think it is well within Christian thought to say that God has the power to forgive


Christians regard the teachings of the bible to be authoritative doctrine pertaining to God's power to forgive. Other than what's in the scriptures, anything else are the mere thoughts of any bloke walking the street. The scriptures are conclusive that without blood there is no forgiveness of sins, period. The Old and New Testaments rely upon blood in order to obtain any forgiveness from bible god.

huckelberry wrote:
(I am more than a little sure that blood itself is not the basis for forgiving anything.)


Blood is indeed the basis in which bible god forgives. Without the shedding of blood there could be no forgiveness. Blood and suffering are key ingredients. Read the bloody bible. It's the handbook of the Christian cult and it mandates that you drink Jesus' blood or be damned.

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins"

Etc.

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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:34 pm 
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Shulem, I think you confuse the power to forgive with the outward sign of the path God chose to make forgiveness reach the world.

I am well familiar with the Bible. It is true that I do not hold to the fundamentalist Protestant requirement you refer to but respect the thoughts presented in the Bible as the starting place for thought on the matter.

If you wish a Biblical description of the matter read Romans not just a fragment of Hebrews.(which refers to blood being the sign of the covenant that God makes.)


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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:57 pm 
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Isaiah 1;10
Hear the word of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom,
listen to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah.
The multitude of your sacrifices, what are they to me?says the Lord

I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals,
I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and of goats.
When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you ,this trampling of my courts?
Stop bringing meaningless offerings, Your incense is detestable to me.
... I cannot bare your evil assemblies ....
15 Your hands are full of blood
wash and make yourself clean
Take your evil deeds from my sight. Stop doing wrong. Seek justice encourage the oppressed, Defend the cause of the fatherless.....

18 Come now let us reason together says the Lord,
Though your sins are like scarlet they shall be as white as snow.
///////////////////////////////////////
This is the real Bible gospel not that chick comic stuff designed to protect the privileged from their guilt. 6


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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:56 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
Shulem, I think you confuse the power to forgive with the outward sign of the path God chose to make forgiveness reach the world.

I am well familiar with the Bible. It is true that I do not hold to the fundamentalist Protestant requirement you refer to but respect the thoughts presented in the Bible as the starting place for thought on the matter.

If you wish a Biblical description of the matter read Romans not just a fragment of Hebrews.(which refers to blood being the sign of the covenant that God makes.)


It seems like a barbaric way to show us how to get back to God. Why do you think God wanted his son tortured? Did crucifixion somehow give it more meaning? Surely he could have used a better method than that if it merely was an outward sign of the path. How about some non-contradictory advice? How about appearing and explaining the path if it is so important?

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Last edited by Exiled on Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:47 pm 
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Exiled wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
Shulem, I think you confuse the power to forgive with the outward sign of the path God chose to make forgiveness reach the world.

I am well familiar with the Bible. It is true that I do not hold to the fundamentalist Protestant requirement you refer to but respect the thoughts presented in the Bible as the starting place for thought on the matter.

If you wish a Biblical description of the matter read Romans not just a fragment of Hebrews.(which refers to blood being the sign of the covenant that God makes.)


It seems like a barbaric way to show us how to get back to God. Why do you think God wanted his son tortured? Did cruxifiction somehow give it more meaning? Surely he could have used a better method than that if it merely was an outward sign of the path. How about some non-contradictory advice? How about appearing and explaining the path if it is so important?

Exiled,
But he did come in person and show us the way. The governing authorities did not like that because it involved giving respect to everybody so they killed him. It was the human way that was barbaric.

Jesus death was most certainly not an outward show it was him committing his entire life to showing us how to live. He had to face the uncertainties of being attacked by the people in power. He had to commit himself to not backing down and accepting what people would do to him in response to what he showed them.

And God does not like the way his son was treated and those who refuse to turn from the inner paths of vainglory and indifference to the poor will like Dives remain unforgiven.


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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:12 am 
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huckelberry, Isaiah, and Jehovah wrote:
Isaiah 1;10 Hear the word of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom, listen to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah.


Listen to me, Jehovah, I'm a gay man -- homosexual true and blue. You will not slay me, a vile and murderous god, you are pure evil in my sight.

huckelberry, Isaiah, and Jehovah wrote:
The multitude of your sacrifices, what are they to me?says the Lord


Are you drunk, Jehovah? Have you lost your mind again? Is your prophet Isaiah so depressed and despondent that he has forgotten how to represent your murderous ways? You love blood and delight in offerings. They are a sweet smell to your nose. Have you forgotten already?

huckelberry, Isaiah, and Jehovah wrote:
I have more than enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fattened animals, I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and of goats.


You've murdered countless animals for your own vain glory and have asked your people to perform all manner of barbaric rituals in order to satisfy your thirst for blood. Your animal sacrifices are all an abomination. You, Jehovah, are a butcher. You have delighted in countless sacrifices because you love to kill -- you love to murder -- you love to put all manner of life to death, whether it be beasts or men. You, Jehovah, are a serial killer and are evil.

huckelberry, Isaiah, and Jehovah wrote:
When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you ,this trampling of my courts?
Stop bringing meaningless offerings, Your incense is detestable to me.
... I cannot bare your evil assemblies ....
15 Your hands are full of blood
wash and make yourself clean
Take your evil deeds from my sight. Stop doing wrong. Seek justice encourage the oppressed, Defend the cause of the fatherless


Oh Jehovah, your hands are already soaked in blood -- you are a murderer many times over. You have slain men and beasts and have ordered the cult sacrifice of so many animals for your crude glory and sick mind. The rituals of blood performed by Moses and his priests are disgusting and barbaric. There is nothing to justify your wickedness and the harm you have brought into the world through your sick religion and cult law of sacrifice. You have slain and put to death men, women, children, and animals all for your sick glory.

I rebuke you, Jehovah -- thou evil god of the bible!

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And when the landing spot of the arrow is moved, RE-DRAW THE TARGET. (Polygamy-Porter)


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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:27 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
Shulem, I think you confuse the power to forgive with the outward sign of the path God chose to make forgiveness reach the world.

I am well familiar with the Bible. It is true that I do not hold to the fundamentalist Protestant requirement you refer to but respect the thoughts presented in the Bible as the starting place for thought on the matter.

If you wish a Biblical description of the matter read Romans not just a fragment of Hebrews.(which refers to blood being the sign of the covenant that God makes.)


I'm not confused. I know full well that the prophets of the bible campaigned for blood and cult rituals. Moses's blades were sharp and his crazy wife cut his foreskin and his sons slit the necks of countless animals -- bleeding them upon altars in a tabernacle to glorify a blood thirsty god and maintain order through horror and suffering. They put to death all that opposed them. It was a cult! Evil and bloodthirsty!

The religion of the bible is a cult. The sacrifice of Jesus is simply another defining moment when blood rituals and sacrifice are used to keep the people in fear: Pray, pay, and obey.

Blah!

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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:04 am 
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Christianity is an adapted tradition which has endured in part because of its social benefit. Pretend you never heard of any religion ever. Why would you stake your life on a stranger's beliefs?


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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:17 pm 
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Meadowchik wrote:
Christianity is an adapted tradition which has endured in part because of its social benefit. Pretend you never heard of any religion ever. Why would you stake your life on a stranger's beliefs?


I agree that social pressures/benefits are what drives religion (as well as politics for that matter). I cannot remember who said this first, but I remember a teacher in school mentioning in passing without much emphasis (probably because she didn't want to get in trouble in the one horse town of Salt Lake City) but she mentioned the obvious point of how where you were born determines your religion. My guess is that it has to do with how religion and politics are closely mixed and the powers that be like to remain such.

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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:22 pm 
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In any case..sometimes I look at Jesus and see him as a great philosipher ..of his time. Whether or not He is the Son of God does not matter to me...but I do love his teachings and his parables. I see truth here the way I look at some Shakespear..and Emerson..Thoreau ..a lot of great thinkers. God I keep..and maybe those thinkers are steering us a way out of religion and into a truth that only God knows. Yes..I am nuts...totally! :confused:


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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:53 pm 
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candygal wrote:
In any case..sometimes I look at Jesus and see him as a great philosipher ..of his time. Whether or not He is the Son of God does not matter to me...but I do love his teachings and his parables. I see truth here the way I look at some Shakespear..and Emerson..Thoreau ..a lot of great thinkers. God I keep..and maybe those thinkers are steering us a way out of religion and into a truth that only God knows. Yes..I am nuts...totally! :confused:


Jesus did teach some cool things -- no doubt about that. Teachings of love and the good Samaritan, all good stuff. But those are wise teachings found in all cultures and in all religions of all ages. It was nothing new. The only thing new that Jesus taught was the bit about drinking his blood and eating his flesh -- gross stuff like that which caused his followers to walk away from him. Obviously the man Jesus was unstable and a total freak -- he pissed the Romans and the Jews off so much they finally had to put him down. The poor guy was no doubt mentally disturbed but obviously brilliant.

Oh well. Jesus H. Christ. Poor sorry dude.

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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Shulem wrote:

Oh well. Jesus H. Christ. Poor sorry dude.


Shulem, we're not talking about Mormon apostles here. Please start referring to Jesus using his full middle name not just his middle initial. Thanks.

Jesus Hussein Christ?

ETA:

Apparently the right answer is Harold. Yes, it's Harold. Jesus Harold Christ. I kid you not, there is whole wiki page on this subject. Jesus Harold Christ what is the world coming to?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_H._Christ

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Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson


Last edited by cwald on Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: You don't need Jesus
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:08 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5iaERTETvE

an interview which touches on several subjects but leads into a thoughtful discussion of the meaning of Jesus death. It probably is not the last word in the discussion but gets back to what apostle Paul spoke of without directly using Paul.


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