Old ground but hey I need to know!

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_Amore
_Emeritus
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Re: Old ground but hey I need to know!

Post by _Amore »

Jersey Girl wrote:
kairos wrote:Me always a nevermo has been invited to lunch by my bishop son's stake president.

"He just wants to know about me and wants me to come to the dark side" I want to demolish him as to his Book of Mormon testimony.


Kairos as much as you'd like to do this, I think you are wasting your time. Why do you want to destroy his testimony? What is your motivation?

Do you hate the LDS church? Hate Mormonism?

Nothing good can come from hating, kairos.

One thing you can do is test yourself out here on the board. Put up your counter claims and let folks here attempt to destroy them. I honestly think that at this point, I could put a good dent in at least some of those counter claims.

I, myself, do not want to destroy the testimony of an Latter-day Saint. I don't want to put anyone in the position of losing their faith, their family, their faith community, their social circle or even their business relations. I actually don't think I have the power to do that to begin with.

I don't want to be the catalyst for someone becoming displaced.

Should someone happen to cross my path who may be going through that process, I think my only role is to support, encourage, and try to understand. At least if it is someone who is looking for support and who I might "click" with.

How would you feel if he were planning to engage in a religious arm wrestling contest with you? Would that open you to listening or would it make you more resistant? Would your only focus be on pushing back?

So will his focus be on pushing back at you.

So I guess I would say that in the unlikely event that you should be successful in destroying his testimony, are you willing to partner with him for the long term to support him and his family? If not, I think you might want to re-examine your motivations.

Do you want to do this because you hate him or because you love him?

I don't know if you are a Christian believer, but if you are, examine the status of your heart. Our aim isn't always true, Kairos.

Well put, JerseyGirl.
_slskipper
_Emeritus
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Re: Old ground but hey I need to know!

Post by _slskipper »

So many thoughts. To a Mormon, "study Isaiah" means dissecting it to find allusions to current events that validate the Mormon's sense of cosmic importance. They call these "predictions" or "prophecies for our day". It is entirely analogous to "studying" Nostradamus. For a Mormon the book must be seen as predictions, and the predictions are always for the present day or impending near future. Never in the history of ever has a Mormon said, "that part happened about 400 years ago, so we don't need to analyze that any more".

As for your meditations on the book, please do not fall into the same trap. Please remind yourself that the book was written at a specific time in Jewish history, to promote the political goals of a particular king by claiming to predict things that already happened. And there were at least two authors, maybe more, whose books got smashed together by some later busybody.
_I have a question
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Re: Old ground but hey I need to know!

Post by _I have a question »

slskipper wrote:So many thoughts. To a Mormon, "study Isaiah" means dissecting it to find allusions to current events that validate the Mormon's sense of cosmic importance. They call these "predictions" or "prophecies for our day". It is entirely analogous to "studying" Nostradamus. For a Mormon the book must be seen as predictions, and the predictions are always for the present day or impending near future. Never in the history of ever has a Mormon said, "that part happened about 400 years ago, so we don't need to analyze that any more".


I’m willing to wager that one could “study Isaiah” and find validations for whatever divine object one wishes to pick as a personal comfort blanket. Try it. Try and get Isaiah to validate the FLDS, or Scientology. I’ll bet you can.

It’s called “confirmation bias”.
Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias,[Note 1] is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses.[1] It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

The Church’s programmes are designed to ingrained this confirmation bias in members from a very early age. See my signature line.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_grindael
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Re: Old ground but hey I need to know!

Post by _grindael »

I adore you Jersey. Your comments are always pugged with sound advice and common sense. :cool:
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_Always Changing
_Emeritus
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Re: Old ground but hey I need to know!

Post by _Always Changing »

Exiled wrote:I don't see it going anywhere. He will retreat to his emotional testimony and you will to yours. Sure deutero Isaiah is a problem but so is the lack of evidence for an exodus, adam and eve, etc. I think both suffer from myth problems.
Ancient myths and the development and maturation of the human connection with God have a lot more meaning than a mish-mash of the literature and culture of upper New England in 1830.

I have no desire to answer an invitation to such a conversation.
Problems with auto-correct:
In Helaman 6:39, we see the Badmintons, so similar to Skousenite Mormons, taking over the government and abusing the rights of many.
_moksha
_Emeritus
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Re: Old ground but hey I need to know!

Post by _moksha »

kairos wrote:What more is needed to nail that coffin shut and/or how would you go about?

Thanx
k

Why not go and simply enjoy the lunch? Needing to have a debate would only cause indigestion.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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