The Problem is the Patriarchy

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_Meadowchik
_Emeritus
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Re: The Problem is the Patriarchy

Post by _Meadowchik »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:What a bout a third option? Households that are split-belief but make it work? It's a socially cohesive group that is connected to the church. Enough of these wholes tangentially becoming part of the LDS church experience might force internal changes, no? (I think this is a relatively new thing, more and more households being openly mixed-faith, where family members take deliberate steps to comprimise in order to respect different beliefs in the home.)


Well. At the end of the day any organization that exists is a money making scheme to one degree or another (again, excluding any whatabout outliers). If you're going to have an organization staffed by professionals who provide a professional product it's going to require money. Those that are willing to hand over money for this product need to get something out of it that makes them feel like they're getting a sum total return on investment, be it social cohesion that leads to a career, a family, whatever.

If you're talking about split-faith families you're really cutting out a huge portion of cash flow to the organization. These organizations can't exist by being overly charitable because charity cases will bleed them dry, and people who run an organization are going to want to feed and house themselves.

So, when you say that split-faith household are socially cohesive I think you're kind of reaching a bit. Most split-faith households have the problem of where they're going to direct their monetary and time commitments. With the Mormon church they need that sweet, sweet tithing coming in and so you're facing a huge uphill battle with a split-faith family donating its time and money. I don't think it's sustainable.

- Doc


So, you think that mixed-faith families won't be such an influence on the church because they won't draw enough tithing monies to the church?

One potential issue I see with your explanation is the emphasis on money. Yes, money is a very crucial element of influence in the church: by requiring it and by spending it, the connection between people and the church is stronger. Yet the relationship between church and individual relationships is in my opinion more complex: there may be families that contribute relatively marginal tithing amounts but they have a bunch of kids, those kids provide a broader social atmosphere for the children of larger tithers, they provide more purpose to other church attendees (adults also crave human interaction and meet that need at church.)

Furthermore, the monetary dynamic could also shift significantly. What happens to wealthy retirees who at the end of their lives want to do more than use of their nest eggs by themselves? They may seek ways to spend it which provide them meaning and purpose. A similar thing can happen to people who inherit windfalls. So apply that to an extremely wealthy organization ran by men operating ostensibly on Christlike principles. Especially if membership trends experience a sharp decline, the way these leaders find meaning and purpose as leaders may also shift.

Anyways, my son pays almost zero tithing because he has zero income. But he does seem to be trending less sexist now that the rest of the family has gone apostate. As he becomes an adult, pays a more significant tithe, and continues maintaining a relationship with us, he will likely observe the familial roles continuing a less-gendered trend and may associate them with healthier marital relationships. (I had my first job interview in 20 years last month, will probably pursue a master's soon.)

Beyond anecdotes, though, the church does seem to use tithing amounts as one way to measure growth and spiritual prosperity, but it needs warm bodies showing up to incentivize the commitment associated with tithes. So people do not have to be relatively significant tithe payers to contribute to total tithing receipts. Their very presence may be incentive for others to come and pay; the fact that they pay 10 dollars a week in tithing has more to do with keeping themselves in and incentivizing the commitment of others who altogether then make the church more influential, and less to do with the church making a net tithing profit from them individually as a family.

You know those DVD players/Smart Phones/etc Walmart sells on Black Friday that seem to earn or even lose money per item is their sales are individually counted by product? Walmart is counting on you to come in for the cheap deal so you'll blow $249 on other stuff.


So, if your a poor tithe payer in the church, you're cheap electronics. You're a DVD player.

/cynicism (I need to go watch Anne of Green Gables or something...)
_Gadianton
_Emeritus
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Re: The Problem is the Patriarchy

Post by _Gadianton »

I agree to a point, but the underlying problem is the church is false. Even if the church suddenly supported women and gays, if they still relied on "revelation" then not to far down the road the new regime would be serving their own prejudices just like bkkkp and oaks.

Unfortunately for the church, even though science doesn't inform on morality directly, morality isn't that tough to understand once the facts are in. So it's not just that the church isn't true, but it has no way to get more true other than to compromise when the finances say that's all they e got.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Maksutov
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Re: The Problem is the Patriarchy

Post by _Maksutov »

Gadianton wrote:I agree to a point, but the underlying problem is the church is false. Even if the church suddenly supported women and gays, if they still relied on "revelation" then not to far down the road the new regime would be serving their own prejudices just like bkkkp and oaks.



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"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Meadowchik
_Emeritus
Posts: 1900
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:00 am

Re: The Problem is the Patriarchy

Post by _Meadowchik »

Gadianton wrote:I agree to a point, but the underlying problem is the church is false. Even if the church suddenly supported women and gays, if they still relied on "revelation" then not to far down the road the new regime would be serving their own prejudices just like bkkkp and oaks.

Unfortunately for the church, even though science doesn't inform on morality directly, morality isn't that tough to understand once the facts are in. So it's not just that the church isn't true, but it has no way to get more true other than to compromise when the finances say that's all they e got.


The underlying problem is that people I care about are stuck in it. The majority will likely never break free. I would prefer they have better, more moral experiences in the church.
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