transformed archaeology in Mexico?????and ended up losing faith.

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_Quasimodo
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transformed archaeology in Mexico—and ended up losing faith.

Post by _Quasimodo »

This won't be "new" news for most of you, but it's an interesting, well written article about Thomas Stuart Ferguson.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/how-mormon-lawyer-transformed-archaeology-mexico-and-ended-losing-his-faith

How a Mormon lawyer transformed archaeology in Mexico—and ended up losing his faith
"We have discovered a very great city here in the heart of ‘Bountiful’ land," Ferguson wrote. According to the Book of Mormon, Bountiful was one of the first areas settled by the Nephites, ancient people who supposedly sailed from Israel to the Americas around 600 B.C.E. Centuries later, according to the scripture, Jesus appeared to the Nephites in the same region after his resurrection. Mormons like Ferguson were certain that these events had happened in the ancient Americas, but debates raged over exactly how their sacred lands mapped onto real-world geography. The Book of Mormon gave only scattered clues, speaking of a narrow isthmus, a river called Sidon, and lands to the north and south occupied by the Nephites and their enemies, the Lamanites.

ETA: The video is worth watching, as well.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
_Maksutov
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Re: transformed archaeology in Mexico—and ended up losing fa

Post by _Maksutov »

Great catch, Quasi. Ferguson's family is still in denial but the evidence of his apostasy lives on. At least he helped with some valid research, as the article makes clear. Studying the weirdness of Mormonism might actually have positive practical value some day. It could happen! :lol:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Quasimodo
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Re: transformed archaeology in Mexico—and ended up losing fa

Post by _Quasimodo »

Maksutov wrote:Great catch, Quasi. Ferguson's family is still in denial but the evidence of his apostasy lives on. At least he helped with some valid research, as the article makes clear. Studying the weirdness of Mormonism might actually have positive practical value some day. It could happen! :lol:


:lol: I think this board has made a science of it!

Ferguson also deserves huge points for intellectual honesty. Rare in Mormonism.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
_deacon blues
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Re: transformed archaeology in Mexico—and ended up losing fa

Post by _deacon blues »

Quasimodo wrote:
Maksutov wrote:Great catch, Quasi. Ferguson's family is still in denial but the evidence of his apostasy lives on. At least he helped with some valid research, as the article makes clear. Studying the weirdness of Mormonism might actually have positive practical value some day. It could happen! :lol:

:lol: I think this board has made a science of it!

Ferguson also deserves huge points for intellectual honesty. Rare in Mormonism.

The Ferguson story impacted my life deeply, especially the 'rest of the story' part.
_aussieguy55
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Re: transformed archaeology in Mexico—and ended up losing fa

Post by _aussieguy55 »

Just like Ferguson the Book of Abraham question did it for me. I remember reading those articles in the Era where Nibley attacked some Egyptologists who commented on the Book of Abraham in the early 1900s. What they said then was backed up by Nibley's friend and Egyptologist Klaus Baer in Dialogue

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... 03_111.pdf
Hilary Clinton " I won the places that represent two-thirds of America's GDP.I won in places are optimistic diverse, dynamic, moving forward"
_Maksutov
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Re: transformed archaeology in Mexico—and ended up losing fa

Post by _Maksutov »

Jeff Lindsay has written a slam of the Science magazine article. See how many inaccuracies, spins and red herrings you can spot.

https://mormanity.blogspot.com/2018/01/ ... d.html?m=1
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Philo Sofee
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Re: transformed archaeology in Mexico—and ended up losing fa

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Thanks for the heads up on both articles Mak

Jeff Lindsay wrote:There are good reasons to doubt that those fragments came from the same scroll that Joseph identified as the Book of Abraham. Ferguson's faith crisis was fueled by sloppy methodology, but having gone through roughly the same faith crisis over the Book of Abraham, I can understand how easy it is to not ask the right questions and come to the wrong conclusions, especially when people like the fraudulent "Egyptologist" Dee Jay Nelson are spinning the data for you. I'm grateful that I had the patience to keep learning and get past that.

Pure apologetic pap. The only identifications and/or descriptions (all of them we have ever in print so far actually) always identify only the 11 fragments we already have, or some figure or hieroglyph that only appears on what we have in our possession. There is literally nothing that is described from anything "missing" fragment wise. Lindsay at this late date simply has to know this, and so he is, I hate to say it, outright lying for the church/Joseph Smith. Dee Jay Nelson was accepted as far as his work on Egyptian translation (amateurish acknowledged even), by both Hugh Nibley, and Klaus Baer. Lindsay intends to suade us that if we only keep reading (only the LDS point of view?), then we can get past the spinning data of D. J. Nelson. It wasn't the Egyptological translations of Nelson that were spun, it was his credentials. His translation is essentially correct according to every single Egyptologist who has ever translated the papyri after him! Thus, Lindsay performs a magnificent non-sequiter here. But he never shows that it was the LDS materials that do the spinning. Amusingly ironic. I simply am not impressed by Lindsay at this point. Perhaps if I bother to finish his yarn, I shall add more comments.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Philo Sofee
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Re: transformed archaeology in Mexico—and ended up losing fa

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Jeff Lindsay also says
Unfortunately, the story leaves out some important information and ultimately relies on a critical narrative (from others, I think) that makes far too much of Ferguson's loss of faith and leaves little room for readers to appreciate that there are serious LDS scholars with the training Ferguson lacked who can delve into Mesoamerican archaeology or Egyptology without losing their faith, scholars who understand that scientific research especially in archaeology is messy, difficult, and often takes a great deal of time to get meaningful results. Read alone, her story may create the impression that the evidence related to the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham is so weak that a serious scholar could not maintain their faith if they seriously considered it.


I have found that the maintaining of faith is not the ultimate goal like it appears to be with Mormon scholars. It is all they seem to give a flying flip about, which is ultimately irrelevant to what is real. Lindsay here completely misses the entire point. He appears to me to be so brainwashed about faith that he cannot grasp the essential point. Forget about frickin faith already. This is about evidence either boosting or destroying the claims of the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham. It is evidence that ought to command our assent or dissent, not faith. Evidence is how reality is grasped and understood. Evidence is the only thing that can change something from probably wrong to probably correct, when the evidence calls for the change of mind. It is the complete, fundamental, zero evidence for the Book of Mormon "dirt" and "earth" reality as being real that wiped Ferguson out. There is literally nothing to bolster the scripture as having to do with anything that is real.

The Book of Abraham is different on this score. It is entirely dismantled through literally everything we have concerning it with negative evidence that contradicts what Joseph Smith claimed. Therefore, Joseph Smith is demonstrated to be wrong, and a false prophet. It is not the lack of evidence that defuses the Book of Abraham, it is the overwhelming complete evidence that does this! Lindsay's wading through the sewer of evidence against his pet LDS scriptures in his high waders of faith is irrelevant. It is nothing to do with faith, it is the complete lack of evidence (where there ought to be something) for the Book of Mormon, and the overwhelming vast majority of evidence in regards to refuting everything Joseph Smith ever said or translated with the Book of Abraham! Drop the scholars can continue living by faith thing. Faith lets you say its dark during full sunlight, so what? It is evidence that is necessary to remain logical, coherent, and rational. This LDS scholarship on these two issues utterly fails in its task.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Philo Sofee
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Re: transformed archaeology in Mexico—and ended up losing fa

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Lindsay also notes
In the years after Ferguson drifted away from the church and the foundation, NWAF continued to lead excavations, fund graduate students, publish an impressive amount of raw data, and store archaeological collections. Thanks to its work, a region that once seemed an archaeological backwater compared with the nearby Classic Mayan heartland in the Yucatán, Guatemala, and Belize has been revealed as the birthplace of Mesoamerican civilization and an economic and cultural hot spot, where people from all over the region crossed paths. “We wouldn't know anything about [central and coastal] Chiapas if it wasn't for [NWAF],” García-Des Lauriers says.


And still no hint of Jaredites, Mulekites, Nephites, or Lamanites. There is literally nothing evidence wise, that correlates to the Book of Mormon. This complete lack of evidence all the way up to this moment I type this, still gives no reason to believe or have faith in the Book of Mormon as a record dealing with historic reality in Mesoamerica. This is what helped Ferguson out of his worthless faith which can do nothing to change reality like a little evidence certainly could. There is nothing in South, Central, or North America which entitles our "faith" to believe anything about the Book of Mormon. Until evidence actually does demonstrate a Book of Mormon reality, we are entirely justified in rejecting it. Evidence or lack thereof is where justification lies, not faith.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Philo Sofee
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Re: transformed archaeology in Mexico—and ended up losing fa

Post by _Philo Sofee »

More from Lindsay
The problem with this agenda-driven narrative [regarding common treatments of the Thomas Ferguson story of his loss of faith] is it ignores the lives of countless others, like M. Wells Jakeman (deceased), Gareth Lowe (deceased), Bruce W. Warren (deceased), John L. Sorenson, John E. Clark, V. Garth Norman, F. Richard Hauck, Brant A. Gardner, Mark Alan Wright, Allen J. Christensen, and Joseph L. Allen. These 11 individuals all have 3 things in common: (1) They each have advanced degrees that in some way focused or emphasized pre-Columbian Mesoamerica; (2) They each have participated in on-site research at archaeological sites in Mesoamerica; (3) They all believe the Book of Mormon is true and has some basis in Mesoamerican history.


There are actually 4 things in common. The fourth thing is that none of these have found any evidence to support the Book of Mormon from anywhere in the Americas from the southernmost tip of South America to the northernmost part of Alaska. There is literally nothing evidence wise for the Book of Mormon peoples being real historic persons in a real historic time which Joseph Smith set the populations of the Book of Mormon, populations of millions of putative existing peoples. There is nada of their reality. It is incredibly ironic that it is the LDS agenda driven ideology of imagining the Book of Mormon is really historical and occurred somewhere in the Americas that Lindsay misunderstands and improperly attributes an agenda driven ideology to the wrong group. I've said enough to bore you all with Lindsay, sorry. I just find him so bass ackwards as to be head shaking.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
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