Mormon Expressions: Mormonism and Voltaire QUESTIONS

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_Meadowchik
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Mormon Expressions: Mormonism and Voltaire QUESTIONS

Post by _Meadowchik »

Yesterday I listened to this, a challenge to Diety that would create children who are destined to suffer, and to the Theism that embraces such an eternal cycle. The challenge discussed by John Larsen and is panel was in my opinion quite effective, putting another spin on how the God concept in Western religions, and especially Mormonism, is ridiculous.

With that little summation, here are some panelist quotes from the podcast, as highlighted on the ME website:


"Notable Quotes:
“What makes Mormonism interesting is all of this weird stuff. Religion is weird in general and I think Mormonism has a lot of penis envy for the protestant Churches and they don’t need to.” –John

“Why does our God do what our God does? And the answer is not because God wills it. For Mormonism God doesn’t really have a will for the same problem reversed that Voltaire is mocking. It is the paradox of God. God can see the outcomes of his actions. He can see how things are going to play out. Let’s assume that in any given choice one of them is better than the other. Alma would lead us to believe that God has to choose the better choice or he ceases to become God. In infinite mathematical cycles a small degree of difference compounds to an infinite degree of difference. God himself on achieving Godhood and omniscience has lost free will. He always has his choices dictated.” –John

“The only reason that God does things is he chooses the most correct one. So Mormonism is trapped into the Liebnitz problem. Mormonism has to say this world we live in is the best possible world otherwise God would modify it.” –John

“We’ve been doing this for a Bazillion years and this is the best possible product? This is the acme of the God evolution cycle?” –John

“What kind of being would create something that was destined to spend all of eternity in misery? There is only two choices: either he had no choice. He was bound to do it. He couldn’t break out. Or he is a damned asshole. Because why else would you do that?” –John

“Mormonism solves the Theodicy by saying God has no choice. God is completely bound.” –John

“They worship a God that is following the rules, but the rules are calling the shots.” –Audience Member "

http://mormonexpression.com/?p=4704

(I had a couple questions with the criticism of Liebnitz, if anyone wants to discuss his apologetics further.)

So this podcast explores all the conceptual implications of God and Mormonism's God combined with suffering, then examines them. But I would like to take that and then look at its sociological effects. Here is the dynamic I can see, steps not necessarily in chronological order:

1. Believe God exists
2. Question the reasoning for suffering
3. Western religions cite the Fall
4. Religions promise formulas for happiness and attaining a good afterlife
5. People follow the religion

So, if a religion is too effective in this dynamic, people will accept suffering so much that they will not eliminate it as much as they can, possibly even causing more and unnecessary suffering.

But, if people accept an objective paradigm of cause and effect, be it integrated within a religious system or outside of a religious system, one can reasonably posit they can have a more direct impact against suffering and therefore have a better chance at minimizing it.

Yet, there is an exception to this when we consider social suffering, where religion is frequently intimately tied to socializing, and therefore adoption of religious practice can be critical to social success.

TLDR;So basically, my response to the podcast flips the theoretical on its head and confronts the real-world relationship between religion and suffering. How can we maximize rationality in a way to best minimize suffering while still benefiting from the social benefits honed by religion?

I don't know that there is any one answer here, but I am interested in approaches you might have.
_Meadowchik
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Re: Mormon Expressions: Mormonism and Voltaire QUESTIONS

Post by _Meadowchik »

After some reflection, I think I would boil it down to this: the world needs good people who practice rationality.

To enlarge on the point, it is two-fold.

Good people: perhaps the best approximation is those who practice the Bill & Ted's theme "Be excellent to each other."

Practicing rationality: or, requiring objectivity to verify and propagate belief, or any other human endeavor, especially those obligating the participation of others.

With these two approaches merged together, I think they help address my question, and also the existential problem addressed by religion and religious critics like Voltaire, namely suffering, while also mitigating the effects of irrational faith and enhancing social connections independent of faith.
_candygal
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Re: Mormon Expressions: Mormonism and Voltaire QUESTIONS

Post by _candygal »

Critics may suffer...but sometimes the greatest pain is rational realization that God doesn't give a damn. It has affected me lately..I am deep into that pain and whys and whatfores...because it will take away again something religions say is true...there is life after this one..what hope is there if I give into this Meadowchik??
_Meadowchik
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Re: Mormon Expressions: Mormonism and Voltaire QUESTIONS

Post by _Meadowchik »

candygal wrote:Critics may suffer...but sometimes the greatest pain is rational realization that God doesn't give a damn. It has affected me lately..I am deep into that pain and whys and whatfores...because it will take away again something religions say is true...there is life after this one..what hope is there if I give into this Meadowchik??


Believe what you need to believe and stay open to believing other things when you are ready to believe other things. You can still do so, in my opinion, while trying to increasing practice rationality more and more in your life. I think that being a good person is a comfort.

You could flip Pascal's wager. Say, "I will try to live a good life, to love others, to expand my understanding and use my brain, following my conscience, and if there is a God I cannot imagine one who would reject me for pursuing those life goals. And if God is like that, God is not one I would want to worship." That works for me, but I am full of plenty of piss and vinegar right now. Still the anger phase ;)
_Philo Sofee
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Re: Mormon Expressions: Mormonism and Voltaire QUESTIONS

Post by _Philo Sofee »

This is a profoundly interesting OP! THANK YOU for sharing this.....
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_Meadowchik
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Re: Mormon Expressions: Mormonism and Voltaire QUESTIONS

Post by _Meadowchik »

Philo Sofee wrote:This is a profoundly interesting OP! THANK YOU for sharing this.....


You're welcome. The podcast is so good. I've been driving a lot this week and it gets me through but also enlarges my soul a bit every time.
_candygal
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Re: Mormon Expressions: Mormonism and Voltaire QUESTIONS

Post by _candygal »

Meadowchik wrote:
candygal wrote:Critics may suffer...but sometimes the greatest pain is rational realization that God doesn't give a damn. It has affected me lately..I am deep into that pain and whys and whatfores...because it will take away again something religions say is true...there is life after this one..what hope is there if I give into this Meadowchik??


Believe what you need to believe and stay open to believing other things when you are ready to believe other things. You can still do so, in my opinion, while trying to increasing practice rationality more and more in your life. I think that being a good person is a comfort.

You could flip Pascal's wager. Say, "I will try to live a good life, to love others, to expand my understanding and use my brain, following my conscience, and if there is a God I cannot imagine one who would reject me for pursuing those life goals. And if God is like that, God is not one I would want to worship." That works for me, but I am full of plenty of piss and vinegar right now. Still the anger phase ;)

Thank you...I needed your words in advice and confirmation. Meadowchik...I have never seen someone grow so much ...so fast...as the days you and I shared the other board. Bless you and best to you. I wish that I just had the time to read and understand those things you have embraced to grow.
_Meadowchik
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Re: Mormon Expressions: Mormonism and Voltaire QUESTIONS

Post by _Meadowchik »

candygal wrote:Thank you...I needed your words in advice and confirmation. Meadowchik...I have never seen someone grow so much ...so fast...as the days you and I shared the other board. Bless you and best to you. I wish that I just had the time to read and understand those things you have embraced to grow.


I'm really enjoying all kinds of podcasts. There's no way I would have the time to sit and listen or watch videos, so I first did a bunch in the summer while walking, now I do alot while doing housework or driving.

Anyways, thank you for your very kind compliment. To me, you have always been a genuine and kind person, willing to be vulnerable on both boards, which is an invaluable quality. Thank you for that. I wish I could invite you over for coffee or something!
_candygal
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Re: Mormon Expressions: Mormonism and Voltaire QUESTIONS

Post by _candygal »

Meadowchik wrote:
candygal wrote:Thank you...I needed your words in advice and confirmation. Meadowchik...I have never seen someone grow so much ...so fast...as the days you and I shared the other board. Bless you and best to you. I wish that I just had the time to read and understand those things you have embraced to grow.


I'm really enjoying all kinds of podcasts. There's no way I would have the time to sit and listen or watch videos, so I first did a bunch in the summer while walking, now I do a lot while doing housework or driving.

Anyways, thank you for your very kind compliment. To me, you have always been a genuine and kind person, willing to be vulnerable on both boards, which is an invaluable quality. Thank you for that. I wish I could invite you over for coffee or something!
Or something...would love to sit down with an ice cold margarita with you!! :smile:
_Meadowchik
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Re: Mormon Expressions: Mormonism and Voltaire QUESTIONS

Post by _Meadowchik »

candygal wrote:Or something...would love to sit down with an ice cold margarita with you!! :smile:


I still need to try that! :D
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