An Open Question on Attaining the Highest Celestial Glory

[_Gaelan_Ainsworth]

Hello, it has been a while but I've been drawn back into regular dealings with church members again, so here I am.

I am stuck on a point of interpretation. Specifically, should someone die without observing all of the covenants, can they fulfil these covenants in the spirit world and still (potentially) attain the highest Celestial glory?

My initial point of inquiry was D&C 131, but that manages to somehow say that it is both possible, and not possible within all of 8 verses.

The next go to point of Alma 34:32-34 seemed to offer the conclusion that it is not possible.

D&C 88 is a mess... just a mess. 88:24-37 seems relevant though.

I also recall Elder M Russel Ballard talking on the point, and stating rather amusingly that it is not possible to attain the highest Celestial Glory without proper marriage and children, before then undermining himself in the next statement by saying that you could skip this by believing in Jesus enough, and then doing it in the spirit world.

In my most recent dealings I have been informed that the highest glory can be achieved by anyone who appropriately carries out the covenants in the spirit world post death, based on things like personal choice and works, and God's plan.

I don't know where I stand on this statement, and reading scripture isn't helping me push past this block any.

Any help on what stances exist and their mechanics would be greatly appreciated.

[_Sanctorian]

Isn’t there a quote somewhere about wayward children and how they can still attain celestial glory if the parents are faithful? I recall something along those lines. It gives my mom piece of mind even though I’m a heathen.

[_Wonhyo]

I used to wonder about that kind of thing, too. I think the most accurate thing that can be said about the Mormon notion of celestial glory/glories is that very little, if anything at all, is actually known.

Seriously, our documentary and discourse history (old and recent) is laden with inconsistencies, contradictions, baffling head-scratchers, shoulder-shruggers, eye-rollers, barf-inducers, revelations disguised as policies and amicus briefs, and opinions disguised as doctrines. It’s hard to keep it all straight and the older I get, the more comfortable I am with the entropy. Because I have no control over any of it, anyway.

And yet the chaos still contains a lot of beauty, meaning, and hope for me. Strange, I know.

[_Franktalk]

I do believe that the different levels of glory represent mental states. In one we have constant contact with Jesus. This would be the spirit world. And then lessor levels below that. In my belief system we are still in the spirit heaven. But we are mentally attached to this mortal mind. Here we can be close to Jesus if we know who he is. If you think of Jesus as your brother then I think you can get pretty close to him in this world.

I do not believe that any church offerings make you closer to Jesus. In my mind that is some old time religion in which money is traded for a seat at the table. I find it amazing that one man can promise another a seat at the table of Christ for a few bucks. To me both the seller and the buyer have no idea who Christ is.

These levels of glories given to the church by Joseph is the same thing given the Jews by Moses. It is a pathway for you to get real close to God. But it is meaningless. It is to satisfy the desires of men and has nothing to do with actual reality. Jesus told us that ALL truth would come from the spirit of truth within each of us. But no one seeks that path. Most want a preacher to tell us how we are special in the eyes of God. But the truth is that all are alike to God. So how are any of these ideas of men useful?

[_Gaelan_Ainsworth]

Isn’t there a quote somewhere about wayward children and how they can still attain celestial glory if the parents are faithful? I recall something along those lines. It gives my mom piece of mind even though I’m a heathen.

This is interesting, I will have to look into finding this quote, though it muddies these waters even further.

I used to wonder about that kind of thing, too. I think the most accurate thing that can be said about the Mormon notion of celestial glory/glories is that very little, if anything at all, is actually known.

Seriously, our documentary and discourse history (old and recent) is laden with inconsistencies, contradictions, baffling head-scratchers, shoulder-shruggers, eye-rollers, barf-inducers, revelations disguised as policies and amicus briefs, and opinions disguised as doctrines. It’s hard to keep it all straight and the older I get, the more comfortable I am with the entropy. Because I have no control over any of it, anyway.

And yet the chaos still contains a lot of beauty, meaning, and hope for me. Strange, I know.

I actually like this answer, it feels honest, like the person writing it actually wrote what they genuinely think, and not just what they think they should say. I'm sorry to say I look at all the chaos though and do not see the beauty and meaning you do.

I do believe that the different levels of glory represent mental states. In one we have constant contact with Jesus. This would be the spirit world. And then lessor levels below that. In my belief system we are still in the spirit heaven. But we are mentally attached to this mortal mind. Here we can be close to Jesus if we know who he is. If you think of Jesus as your brother then I think you can get pretty close to him in this world.

I do not believe that any church offerings make you closer to Jesus. In my mind that is some old time religion in which money is traded for a seat at the table. I find it amazing that one man can promise another a seat at the table of Christ for a few bucks. To me both the seller and the buyer have no idea who Christ is.

These levels of glories given to the church by Joseph is the same thing given the Jews by Moses. It is a pathway for you to get real close to God. But it is meaningless. It is to satisfy the desires of men and has nothing to do with actual reality. Jesus told us that ALL truth would come from the spirit of truth within each of us. But no one seeks that path. Most want a preacher to tell us how we are special in the eyes of God. But the truth is that all are alike to God. So how are any of these ideas of men useful?

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying the true path is. but your answer fascinates me. Are you stating that all of the trappings of doctrines and covenants as laid out by the church are just the church creating a means where you see there is none? I am however dealing with a group of members that take covenants and scriptures and revelations very seriously, so this answer is very much at odds with the people I'm conversing with.

Thanks all for your responses.

[_Meadowchik]

I used to wonder about that kind of thing, too. I think the most accurate thing that can be said about the Mormon notion of celestial glory/glories is that very little, if anything at all, is actually known.

Seriously, our documentary and discourse history (old and recent) is laden with inconsistencies, contradictions, baffling head-scratchers, shoulder-shruggers, eye-rollers, barf-inducers, revelations disguised as policies and amicus briefs, and opinions disguised as doctrines. It’s hard to keep it all straight and the older I get, the more comfortable I am with the entropy. Because I have no control over any of it, anyway.

And yet the chaos still contains a lot of beauty, meaning, and hope for me. Strange, I know.

Even further, if we go by historical precedent, none of it is knowable either, even something as basic as simple doctrine is unknowable, for Mormonism operates on the living word of Restoration, where the current prophet is the one to be listened to and heeded and counted on for doctrine. Therefore, since your afterlife is in the future, the doctrine pertaining to it is always a step between any doctrine that comes henceforth.

[_Franktalk]

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying the true path is. but your answer fascinates me. Are you stating that all of the trappings of doctrines and covenants as laid out by the church are just the church creating a means where you see there is none? I am however dealing with a group of members that take covenants and scriptures and revelations very seriously, so this answer is very much at odds with the people I'm conversing with.

Thanks all for your responses.

If you read Eze 14 you will find the rules for prophets. This also is a rule for the spirit of truth that is inside of you. You will see that a prophet is to give out truth but if someone comes to the prophet with an idol in their heart then the prophet is to give them their idol. The idol in this case is the desire that some idea of man is true. With Moses he gave the Jews the law because they wished to be closer to God than others. So the law was given to satisfy their desires. The same is true with Joseph Smith. He tried to teach truth but the people did not want that. They wanted the old law. So Joseph just reshaped the old law so the people felt as though they were special. He even gave then special heavens that they might go to if they were worthy. None of it was true but it made the people happy.

Christ came to educate people and do away with the law. But the people wanted the law. Just read 3Nephi 17. In 3Nephi Jesus gave the Gospel. (the words shared by the Bible and Book of Mormon) But in Chapter 17 he was done giving the gospel and told the people to ponder what he said. But they wanted more. Jesus wept knowing that he must follow the rules and must give the people what they wanted. So he gave them law.

The highest rule of this universe is free will. Even Christ is not to interfere with it. If people wish to live the lie then prophets must leave them alone and even support the lie. If you read 1Kings13 I think you will find a prophet who lies. Of course nobody pays attention to this. They hang on every word a prophet mutters. But Christ told us to use our own spirit of truth to find truth. So if you take the inward path and bring none of the world with you then you can sort out truth from the lie. Here is one more thing.

Tit_1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

The Bible tells us that most of what is written is a fable. But a pathway is given to sort it out.

Now I write this because this is a forum where people come to discuss ideas. So I am free. But if someone is happy with what they believe and do not seek other answers then I leave them alone. We should have respect for free will choices.

[_grindael]

It's Thanksgiving and so I've taken a few to post here. This is very interesting to me and I've done a lot of research on this very question. I just want to bring up an example of how this is all arbitrary and foolish.

Take Amasa Lyman. Member of the Q12. In the mid 19th Century he began preaching that Jesus was only a "good man". He did this FOR YEARS. He finally was so blatant about it he got reprimanded. He promised to stop. He did not. He then got involved with Spiritualism. He joined the Godbeites. He FINALLY got excommunicated and was booted from the Church. Very bad things were said about him by Brigham Young and others. He was stripped of his Apostleship and Priesthood.

He died.

Then, since some in his family were powerful in the church (Apostles and such) after his death they plead with the First Presidency to have all of his "blessings" posthumously "restored". http://blog.mrm.org/2010/03/can-apostat ... nt-page-1/

They had no idea if he had "repented" in the Spirit World, but they were adamant that he must have. So what did the FP do? They gave him back his former Priesthood "blessings", etc. and Amasa Lyman is all set for the Celestial Kingdom like none of that crap ever happened to him.

They did this with John D. Lee and other "apostates" also.

So what's the point? Mormon "prophets" can do anything they want. It's all arbitrary. And don't forget about blood atonement. Bottom line is, they make up and then break the "rules" as they go along. According to Smith he could "seal" anyone to himself and his God would have to give them to him in the afterlife. Didn't matter who they were or what they did, or for that matter what Smith did. HE was the voice of God and was God to the Church. Might as well be selling indulgences, like the Catholics did. Always an exception for the rich or powerful. But never question any of this, or you'll be labeled an "apostate" and have your "blessings" taken away. But then, make sure you leave your descendants a lot of money and you can probably have them buy them all back after you die.

THERE REALLY ARE NO RULES.

Everyone should know this going in. And then, if you decide that "it still contains a lot of beauty, meaning, and hope", bully for you. But don't be deceived that God has anything to do with it. They make no case for any God being in charge. Their God (as all man made gods are in every religion), is fickle and arbitrary and a mass of confusion. Kind of like men are. Yeah, just like that.

[_I have a question]

Let me add this to the discussion.

"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; "Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

"For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts" (D&C 137:7-9).

https://www.lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng

Now here’s the question.
If God knows in advance who would or would not accept the Gospel, and can base their eternal reward accordingly...what is the point of restoring the gospel and of missionary work?

[_Fence Sitter]

I don't know where I stand on this statement, and reading scripture isn't helping me push past this block any.
.

Frankly there is very little in the church that one can say definitively is doctrine. By proof texting scripture and talks by GAs one can pretty much defend any position. About the only thing we know for sure is that God hates the children of gay couples and dead prophets and apostles were sometimes wrong.